Universe my not be infinite

Discussion in 'Science' started by Quasar44, Apr 27, 2020.

  1. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    It may very well loop around just like earth
    This new thought seems to be as popular as it being Infinite
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    I always have believed it's not infinite, but more mobius strip-ish. Say you leave towards a point, keep going, eventually you'll return in the opposite direction.
    For me, infinity doesn't make sense, but a giant circle does. But, what do I know? I'm just a jazz pianist who smokes some stuff which is illegal in some states.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  3. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This iirc is the 'doughnut shaped universe.' It isn't actually shaped like a doughnut, but it functions thusly as one travels through it. Theres no 'end' or 'beginning', but if you go far enough in one direction, you will sort of spiral around the inside of the doughnut until you get back to wear you started, and if you keep going, you'll travel the same path again.

    Thats one theory, anyway.

    I dunno how 'new' it is, I recall Homer and Steven Hawking discussing it in an earlier season of the Simpsons.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how we could possibly make decisions on the shape of our universe when we don't know anything about the "envionment" in which our "big bang" took place.

    I have plenty of respect for theoretical physicists who strive to put together consistent models concerning what we do know and try to figure out what they mean for us, search for ways we could detect whether they are real, etc.

    I hope they get so far as to be able to recocile quantum mechanics and gravity.
     
  5. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    One off events, big bang, etc., do not make sense to me.

    If the universe started with a bang, expands, collapses on itself, then big bangs anew, it makes more sense to me it will be restarting in a continuum that has been going on for infinity.

    Moreover, wherever I look in life, there is not 'one' of any category; not one cat, one germ, one tree, one lake, one human, etc., etc., etc.,

    Therefore, not only there is not one planet with intelligent life, if there is a big bang, there isn't one of them, either. (another reason I don't buy monotheism, it's either polytheism or pantheism, or "the force" ism --see my OP in the religion & philosophy board ). There are other universes as the universe seems to be a consortium of grouped groups of things, from universe>galaxies, solar systems, planets with moons, etc., down to electrons, etc., in a kind of ordered chaos. Beyond our universe, which is probably a huge circle ( the magic shape ) there are other circled universes, like cosmic baubles floating in the cosmic sea.

    Or, let's just chalk it off to one huge frickin' mystery, and have a beer ( I prefer wine ).

    YOu know what I think? God is 'gravity', that's all it is, It's the one thing that must exist before anything can exist. Right?
    ( I'm not a physicist, subject to knowledge intervention :) )
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  6. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Due to the similar nature of space and time, if space loops around, time probably loops around as well.

    There's also a third bizarre theory, and that is the universe could be finite to all observers, but not finite from the same perspective. I know that idea is kind of difficult to comprehend, but there's a lot of precedent for that type of thinking in quantum mechanics and relativity. What this means is the universe could, in some philosophical sense, really be infinite, but the existence of that may be no more relevant to our reality than the multiple worlds theory.
    To say it in different words, the universe is finite but only relative to the frame of reference of any particular observer.

    Although this idea may kind of sound pretty useless, it actually would have a lot of implications to the fundamental nature and forces of the universe, in ways that are a little too complicated to get into here.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
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  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The donut shaped universe theory is actually kind of the one that best fits with the observations of reality, in a way, because such a universe could easily appear much bigger than it actually is, unless you know the exact right direction to orient towards. A perfectly spherical universe, on the other hand will eventually take you right back to the same place no matter what direction you go.
    On a donut (the shape is called a torus) you can end up going around the donut many times without going back to where you started from.
    And due to the extreme dependence on angles, at such large distances, and geometric nodes of vectors, it would be virtually impossible to get any sort of intelligible visual image far out. (a slight angular difference could mean the difference between going around the donut 4 times versus going around 100 times)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  8. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't know if you are familiar with the concept of quantum coherence, and how that phenomena can exist over vast distances of both space and time.
    From experiments already observed, as strange as this may sound to some, we know that the past is correlated to the future. If the universe is truly on a circular continuum, then it must repeat in the same exact way.

    (Well, at least within the confines of space-time, you're free to imagine outside forces that may be beyond the confines of space-time)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, here's another thought experiment to perform.

    If you took all the matter in the universe (and assuming it's all ordinary matter) and you let it all fall in on itself, it would release the same amount of energy as if you took all the matter in the universe, magically turned half of it into anti-matter, and then let the two halves annihilate with each other.
    This is because, as matter falls into a gravitational well, it loses rest mass. Which of course makes sense because matter is being converted to energy.

    There's some statistic out there that somewhere around 90% of an object's mass ends up being converted to energy as it falls into a black hole. Obviously you can't take matter and anti-matter, turn 90% of their mass into energy, and then still expect to get the energy you would have gotten before from them annihilating outside the black hole. (That would violate conservation of mass-energy obviously)
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  10. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    I always thought the universe was flat and Infinite but experts disagree

    Now I don’t know

    I try to watch Star Talk to get the “ juicy info “
     
  11. Quasar44

    Quasar44 Banned

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    It’s too beyond my comprehension
    I don’t think man will ever conquer the Stars
     
  12. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wonder about the economic feasibility of even building a colony on Mars. I mean, look how poor many places on Earth actually are. We can't even solve those economic problems on Earth. Now try to apply that to Mars where everything would be inherently more expensive and costly to do.

    I believe it will take very advanced artificial intelligence before economic productivity ever reaches a level that will enable an economy on another planet.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  13. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    So I am right? I was just pulling the idea out of thin air.

    We're on a cosmic merry-go-round?

    Wonderful ! Hah !
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I like you comnent on things which are claimed to be unique - with nothing even related.

    Today, I think most physicists are pretty convinced that our universe will expand forever, gradually evaporating to nothingness with even subatomic particles decaying. But, that only makes the "only one" aspect even harder to accept.

    I think the answer from science is going to be "I don't know" for quite some time. It's hard to imagine how physicists will get information concerning what was going on in the "environmnent" that resulted in the big bang.
     

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