US F-22s came face-to-face with Russia's top fighter near Alaska and were at a major disadvantage

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by Destroyer of illusions, Sep 15, 2018.

  1. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    When you lose the will to fight, you lose the war.
    They lost.

    They didn't go to war with the goal of giving up and going home.
    They went to war with the aim of defeating the revolutionaries.
    They failed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  2. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    So you elect to just runaway. Works for me. You can return home with the Great Patriotic Victories to your name.
     
  3. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    The first one is the KS-172. It uses the seeker head from a AA-10 missile so it has about a 22 mile lockon range. It requires the launching bird to stay locked onto the target until it's within 22 miles and then it can lock on and guide itself in. It is NOT in service although the Indians have the rights to it and are working to get it for the SU-30s. Having to leave your radar on and locked that long is a huge kick me sign these days.

    Now on to the second missile. This one actually exists. But it has a huge problem. It's so fast it can't really maneuver. it's main job is to disrupt not kill. The AWACs just has to relocate laterally and the missile misses. It was originally designed for the Mig-31 to be used against high altitude bombers. Since the bombers won't penetrate high altitude anymore, they had to find a different use for it. So now it's an AWACs killer. It's big and will stand out like a sore thumb on radar. While it probably can't be shot down at Mach 6, it can't really maneuver either. They tried to out Phoenix the Phoenix but the Phoenix is about the top of the scale for speed at Mach 4 to 5. BTW, the enemy fighter would have just about be on top of it for it to see the fighter. And the F-22 and 35 will not be detectable at all. They have tested it out to 340 miles and claim a kill. But that is with a stationary target the size of a building not changing speed nor direction. If the fighters pick this pig up, the AWACs will relocate and it will be a clear miss.
     
  4. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    Your comment recalls the words of a small child who was beaten at school and when he comes home, wipes away his tears and threatens that he will punish the abuser.:party:
     
  5. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Please consider the networking of any guidance system rather than the choice of specific guidance system itself.

    Certainly I was also struck by the lack of user friendliness in those controls.
    Those are decades old and predate touch screen adoptance. On the other hand your system is hypothetical. Theirs is real and in use.
    And while it may take a first time user 1-7 seconds using a virtual interface, I expect you could get very good with it after an hour or two. Think how fast a secretary can type.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  6. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    The F-35 operates exactly that way and so does the F-22. And it's displayed on not only the LCD display but on the helmet display as well. They want to highlight a target, they just touch it once, pick the weapon and fire on it. And it doesn't matter if it's Air to Air or Air to Ground. Once the weapon is fired, the pilot moves on to the next target or flies the plane if he has to. His right hand touches the LCD screen, his left hand picks the weapon and fires it. Takes about a second.

    It works so well that the F-35B allows the Naval Missiles with only a 240 mile range (due to the curvature of the earth) to reach out to over 1200 miles if the F-35 is far enough away and has enough altitude.

    Pilots are not secretaries and don't have have the querty keyboard nor spent the time to gain the proficiency in just typing. Try again, Comrade. Your planes are still about 15 to 20 years behind. Even the Thrust Vectoring was first done by an American F-16XL 20 years ago. Great for air shows but not for combat. If you are flying along at 600 mph, got a bogey on your tail and pop the Cobra, what you give him is a bigger stationary target filling his windshield so he can pop off his missiles better at you. Plus, if you are flying at Mach .9 or .95 where the F-22 and the F-15 is going to force the fight, doing the Cobra means you are now testing if you can fly with just your fuselage since your wings folded like a cheap suit. At that speed, it's going to come down to who is the best pilot and who has the best avionics and missile short range package. Right now, the avionics and short range missiles goes to the F-22 and the F-15 hands down. And the USAF, Navy and Marine Pilots have many times the flight and fighter training than the Russians. While I believe in a turn and burn fight at Mach .9,the SU-35 can hold it's own, the AC is just part of the equation.
     
  7. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    Actually, I am learning from you. You bring up mostly fictitious weapons but sometimes you bring up something real. But you himhaw around it because you didn't do your own homework. I take your information and learn about it and report back with it. You are helping to expand my knowledge. I would like to believe that I am helping to expand yours as well. It's supposed to be a two way street. But while my lane is running smoothly, your lane has way too many crashed cars and demolished buses in it. But occasionally something makes it down the block even with your crappy driving.
     
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  8. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you are helping expand mine.
    Thank you.
    I am interested in this stuff.

    Unfortunately with your responses, I am having to run them through both a bias filter and an antagonism filter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  9. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    Or could it be a propaganda filter? There seems to be a lot of that these days.
     
  10. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    It's a 9 button keyboard.
    A gamepad is more complex.
     
  11. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    But it's not a one touch screen and the Pilot has to hit buttons all over the cockpit to use the system. Even our A-10 which is a 50 year old bird doesn't have that problem.
     
  12. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    That too.

    For example what you are describing as the capabilities of the F35 and F22 networking systems, is not at this time functional.
    So the half truth you are offering me is that it can do this now, as opposed to it is hoped to be able to do this in the future.

    Then we have the effectiveness of stealth and this again is primarily propaganda as neither of us have the information we need to validate those claims.
    What I do know is that despite the propaganda claims, stealth has proven to be defeatable by commonplace weapons systems.
    Your assessment of the effectiveness of Russian long range anti AWACS missiles once again falls foul of this.
    I don't believe that either of us are in a position to know for sure and the only people with any firm knowledge of this are the Russians. Who you will not believe whatever they say and whom I will run through a bias filter.
    So your claims are spurious at best. And your will to promote your own side as the superior have to be taken into consideration.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
    Giftedone likes this.
  13. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    Disagree. He turns it on and then the controls are in one place.
    Nor would I consider it to be any great barrier to effectiveness if they were not. But they are. So the point is moot.
     
  14. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Much of your assessment is based on the assumption that "Stealth Planes" can not be detected. This is simply not true. According to one of the designers of the F-16 - Stealth is a sham.
     
  15. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    The networking was introduced in block 3 for the F-35 and the Link 16 has been in the F-22 since about 2009. Block 3 was introduced into the F-35 last year. The only problem is, the F-35 can understand the F-22s link 16 but the F-22 can't understand the F-35s networking. As it stands now, even the F-15E can receive the Link 16 but he just can't send anything back. This isn't a real big problem considering the F-22 fills the Quarterback Position and has the best radar of all 3. This information isn't secret at all. Now, how it all works certainly is.

    To date, only one Stealth has been shot down. Let's see if we can duplicate it. You fly the same pattern every time, same altitude, same speed, same time each day. Then you have a mole get a hold of this simple schedule and get it to the enemy commanders. Oh, you know they are there without this information because Stealth isn't invisible. It's just harder to pickup and even harder to lock on to. At that specific time, you fire a group of ground to air missiles (it really doesn't matter how old) set them to go off at the specific altitude at the specific coordinates. What are the chances of hitting something that you know is there but are incapable of locking on to? Pretty high. Some idiot mission planner was flying the F-117 like they did the F-105s over Hanoi. AFter that, during desert storm, the F-117s didn't fly that way and raised havoc on Baghdad each and every night. The Iraqis lit the skies up trying to hit one but never did. Stealth doesn't cure stupidity.

    Do you know why only the US has the real deal for 5th gen Stealth Aircraft? We invested heavily in it for decades before anyone else started thinking of it. The Engineers at our Aerospace learned how to do tolerances tighter than any other country could. And you can make it look like a stealth AC but without the ability to get those tolerances that tight, it's just a very pretty 4th gen. The F-22 doesn't look like it does because it's the cool kid on the block. It looks that way because it has to be built that way in order to have those tolerances and aerodynamics. At first glance,the SU-57 looks stealthy as all get out. But when you examine it closely you see features that make stand out like a beacon in the night to radar. Most Russian Planes aren't stealthy at all. The SU-57 is the best coming out of Russia today but it isn't much more stealthy than a F-15 who ends up with a bit of stealth purely by accident in the design. But the F-15 can never be considered a stealth fighter by any stretch of the imagination. And the blocky ugly F-35 makes the stealth list not because he's swauve but because his tolerances are so tight and the math is better in the design.

    The most expensive Aircraft to operate in the World is the B-2. Second place goes to the F-22. The F-35 doesn't even make the top 10 on that list. Russia made some of the same mistakes the US made with the 117, B-2 and F-22 making them one mission per day at best aircraft. The stealth was painted on. The F-35 has it baked into it's skin. Instead of having to send it to a 3 day paint shop, they just replace that particular panel and turn the bird for another mission on the same day. We know that is what they do. But what we don't know is HOW they do it. And they ain't sayin.

    We know quite a bit about the SU-35 and 57 along with the F-22 and F-35 but we don't the Hows. In the F-22s case,even after almost 20 years, the Hows are still closely guarded.
     
  16. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    To date one stealth has been "shot down"
    But two more have sustained critical damage and made it home to never fly again. Same difference. Semantic argument.

    F 35 got shot down by Syrian AA on pretty much it's first combat mission
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  17. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    One got bird damage. You been hanging out with the propaganda police again. And it's flying again after a windshield replacement. This happens in all types of AC. And buildings and even Kites. The plane that got hit was a F-16, not a F-35. You really need to do a reality check on this one. The other one was a lightning strike and it was one of the early test models. Since then, the F-35 has been lightning hardened. But no pilot ever wants to chance getting hit by a lightning strike. Again, this happens to building, trees, kites and even humans walking down the street. Those early F-35 models were used for further testing and then parted out to keep other F-35s in the air. There were 103 test birds made and all are either still in testing or being parted out.
     
  18. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    LMAO.
    Ever seen bird damage write off an entire aircraft that managed to land?
    Ever heard of such a thing?

    Yes my friend. You did mention propaganda.

    Not some F16.
    The first F35 to see combat.

    Done. Shot down.

    Make all the excuses you like.
    Stealth is propaganda rich technology. More bollocks than truth.

    They said all the same things about the F117 when that got shot down.
    People were still saying it when I was posting the photographs. Bla bla bla.

    **** me sidewise, you really want to take the word of the Israeli information minister?
    Don't bother. No bigger liars and propagandists exist.
    If your bias filter hasn't kicked in it is broken.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  19. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    I remember when the Nighthawk was shot down. No bones were made. It was reported as lost until they verified that it was shot down. Then they discovered the method. The Mole should NEVER get out of prison. And the mission planners should be forced to work cleaning bathrooms in McDonalds for eternity including after they die. You aren't old enough to have much of a memory of when it was shot down, kid. You are just making **** up again.

    The Syrians (Iranians) made that claim but the wreckage was that of a F-16. The reported downed F-35 was being flown hundreds of miles away in a training mission. Right after that, the Israelis sent in a bunch of F-16s and 15 and wiped out the missile sites. Funny, the F-16 made it back over friendly territory and the pilot bailed out and was recovered. Sounds like the Syrians (Iranians) lost on that encounter big time.

    In the past month, the Iranians are complaining that the Israelis are making overflights over parts of Iran. There is only one bird that can do that and that is the F-35. This is why the Iranians are trying to setup AA sites inside of Iraq right now. And the reason that the Israelis are just about ready to burn them to the ground. This and one place in Syria would be where the Israelis would use as a refueling point in order to reach Iran from Israel. The Iranians are also trying to setup their AA Missile Sites in Syria. Good luck with that one too. Since they really can't stop the F-35s, the Iranians figure that they can stop the tankers. Until the Israelis get those conformal stealth tanks build and installed, the F-35 lacks the range for the round trip without refueling. So they try and set up AA missile sites in the places where the tankers would be. Israel will just have to take them out. And Russia won't do a thing about it either. And neither will Syria. Oh, Iraq will grumble but deep down, they will be great-full.
     
  20. dixon76710

    dixon76710 Well-Known Member

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    And how good are those missiles at distinguishing between two planes flying side by side once the missile has made its turn?
     
  21. Baff

    Baff Well-Known Member

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    You tell me.
    If I was the pilot, I'd be turning away myself.

    There is a video posted above of this being done. So see for yourself.
    It's not like we are talking pure hypotheticals here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  22. DeadMeat

    DeadMeat Newly Registered

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    From what I can see,it's having to make some serious thrust vectoring correction due to it's low speed. Once the speed is gotten up to speed (pun intended) then it can no longer make those corrections like that. Nor does it need to.

    The fact remains, if a pilot sees the missile coming he can usually avoid it. Once the missile is up to speed, it can't turn very well. It's flying at mach 2 and sometimes at Mach 4+. Pilots train the avoid getting knocked down by missiles both air to air and ground to air. The one that gets the kill is usually the one that was never detected or detected too late.
     

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