US infantry accuracy

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by sunnyside, May 25, 2011.

  1. NaturalBorn

    NaturalBorn New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    17,220
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    0
    M-2 porn!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    12,225
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    That sounds like a fun day at the range!

    That sounds awful! I guess the brad isn't a whole lot better but in the end I felt more secure in those than that moving brick we call a 113. Still way too high. Guess it goes with the fighting style; hull down and have a turret to fight advancing Russians, but still I think the Russians had it uncomfortably right with low hull vehicles. I'd say the mines would suck, but you hit under armor of any APC and people are getting filled with metal.
     
  3. My Fing ID

    My Fing ID Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2009
    Messages:
    12,225
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Lol. Nothing like a nice view. I'm sure she's well lubed, but if only she were just disassembled for my pleasure...
     
  4. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    0
    sunnyside and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Clint Torres

    Clint Torres New Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    76
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Prior to the Mid 90s most Army Infantry was based on small arms mobility, as well as large scale desert warfare with tanks. The 300m was the max effective killing range for the old M16 which was used for 2 decades after Viet Nam. There were other longer range crew served weapons using 7.62 ammo for killing up to 1100m. Depending on the unit, other long range weapons were the focus of their training doctrine.

    If I recall, in the late 70s the US Army started to reconfigured to a regimental system of desert warfare weapons like the X-MI tank, Bradly, HummV, Blackhawk and Apatchy. By 1980 they resurected the NTC for large scale Desert combat training. By 1985 Infantry BDUs had turn from Woodland cammo to desert cammo, and most units had incorporated all the new desert fighting equipment. By the end of 1990s the US Army, and Air Force were capable of deployment for Desert warfare. In 1991 they deployed to their first major campain in Iraq. The rest you know. In about 1996 the US Army was in the process of converting regimental infantry to the Stryker type warfare, i.e., deploy fast and light and with shock and aw. After that I have no idea of what changes the Infantry went through. But after seeing them on TV, I know they have incorporated light infantry again with better technology and way better weapon systems than before.
     
  6. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    M16=500yard effective range (for some of us anyway 8)

    I was under the impression that the conversion to stryker brigades occured post OIF-1 to better meet deployment demands.
     
  7. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Between 11/2003 and 10/2004, the Army deployed the first Stryker-equipped force
    to Iraq.
     
  8. wezol

    wezol New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Correct, and there are only two positions you need to know.

    1) From the hip.
    2) Stock under the armpit.

    Any other position is overkill.
     
  9. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Don't forget dual wielding from the hip.
     
  10. wezol

    wezol New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Only allowed with 240's, with belts sling over each opposite shoulder.
     
  11. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Considering that during the Vietnam conflict, Americans fired 50,000 rounds per enemy casualty, I really do not understand what accuracy is needed for.
     
  12. wezol

    wezol New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A HIGH majority of those rounds were from belt feed weapons used as grazing/suppressive fire.

    You don't understand what accuracy is needed for?....really?
     
  13. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Accurate fire suppresses, injures, and kills the enemy at a much higher rate. You also don't have to carry as much ammo. Since Vietnam the military has modifed the standard rifle to only fire burst and single shot. In my 4 years and 2 deployments I think I only fired burst 3 or 4 times for fun at a range. Well-aimed single shots are the name of the game today for riflemen, especially with RCOs. During the battle of Fallujah when the RCOs were first given to Marines there was a big investigation because so many insurgents were found to have been killed by headshots. It turned out the RCOs were responsible.
     
  14. wezol

    wezol New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    12
    Trophy Points:
    0
  15. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    The average soldier in the Vietnam error carried the same auto weapons the current crop of soldiers carry, M-16, M4 type magazine feed AUTOMATIC weapons and various belt fed small automatic weapons. Todays soldiers also have heavier belt fed weapons like 50's and auto-cannons. The same were available at in Nam. However, today, like in Nam, long distance accuracy is used nearly ALWAYS by trained snipers, and their accuracy is quite good. The actual amount of ammunition fired per injury is ALWAYS extremely high. In the civil war, it is estimated that one ton of ball ammo was fired for every casualty, dead or injured. In the first gulf war, over 20,000 rounds of 223 per every death. War is NOT about accuracy, it is about FIREPOWER. Forget the movies, look at some real scenes taken in combat, of soldiers sticking their Mattel toys around a corner without looking and pulling the trigger, burning off a whole magazine, just hoping to accidentally hit something, or to at least make it hard for the enemy to aim. For every "one shot, one kill" there are 10,000 shots and 10,000 misses in warfare. When I went through training the the 60's the army had already eliminated "target shooting" at bulls-eyes. They had moved on to what modern combat is about, sustained fire by many on one target. We practiced on pop-up targets at various ranges, with whole platoons and even companies taking one target, a machine gun, a truck or a small enemy squad under fire, pouring dozens of magazines full of enemy at the single target. The days of Dan'l Boone are long gone, today is the day of devastating firepower.
     
  16. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If this were true of many more than yourself.....then the military would not have fired 20,000 round of 223 for every inflicted death in the Kuwait war. You seem to be the exception, since the fact do not bear out that all people carrying the m-4 do the same.
     
  17. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    M16A4 and M4s that troops carry today ARE NOT AUTOMATIC. 50 cals have been around since WWI, I don't know what autocannons are, MK-19s?

    Your military experience was in the 60s.....mine was from 2006 to 2010. I was taught to fire well-aimed single shots are ranges in excess of 100 yds, and hammer pairs or occasionally bursts at closer ranges. I was taught to fire and constantly hit man sized targets at 500yds. I'm not pretending like every fired shot today is 100% aimed, but most of them are fired by soldiers looking down their sights; Especially with RCOs today. These well-aimed shots are partiuclarly important for todays battlefield where civilain casualties are a serious issuse. Since Vietnam the military has reanalyzed its markmenship practices. The unaimed spray and pray of your day was deemed a waste of ammo and thus M16s are no longer fully automatic.

    Now, if you want to talk about suppressive fire and the SAWs, M240s, 50s, and MK-19s I'd be happy to. Those are still used for suppressive fire and expend thousands of rounds of ammunition very quickly. Your average rifleman isn't taught to burn through his 300 rounds in the first 5 minutes of a firefight though.

    I don't need to see real movie scences of combat....I did two deployments.
     
    sunnyside and (deleted member) like this.
  18. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    In Basic I trained on the M-14 semi-auto only. The first time we did times slow fire on the range, the entire company had emptied their 20 round magazines in less than 5 seconds. 2000 rounds down range at about 40 pop-up targets. After that 2000 rounds went down range, there were still 38 targets standing. A weapon DOES not have to be full auto to burn rounds like mad. A three round burst will get rid of ammo much faster than simple semi-auto. It is a THREE ROUND AUTOMATIC BURST. The facts simply do not bear out that your experience was the norm. 20,000 round per casualty does NOT equate to "well aimed fire". It does not even equate to "looking down the sights", what it does equate is "point and pull". You might like to think that your situation was what everyone was doing, but nope, not possible, not given the odds of 20,000:1.

    Oh, auto-cannons are any automatic weapon larger than .50 caliber. Or auto-weapons which uses explosive shells, they currently include (in the US military):
    M242/Mk 38 Mod 0 Bushmaster Chain gun (Automatic Cannon, 25x137mm)
    M61 Family (Rotary-Barreled Automatic Cannon, 20x102mm)
    M197 (Rotary-Barreled Automatic Cannon, 20x102mm)
    GAU-8/A (Rotary Barreled Automatic Cannon, 30x173mm)
    GAU-12/U (Rotary Barreled Automatic Cannon, 25x137mm)
    GAU-13/A (Rotary Barreled Automatic Cannon, 30x173mm)
    M230 (Chain-Driven Automatic Cannon, 30x113mm)
    Mk 19 Mod 0/1/2/3 Automatic Grenade launcher (Automatic Grenade Launcher, 40x53mm)

    It does seem strange that they have been used for ages and you are not familiar with them.

    Here are a few that I was familiar with, from my old-time war.
    M75/M129 (Automatic Grenade Launcher, 40x53mm)
    M174 grenade launcher (Automatic Grenade Launcher, 40x46mm)
    M175 grenade launcher (Automatic Grenade Launcher, 40x53mm)
    Mk 18 Mod 0 (Manually Operated, Belt-Fed Grenade Launcher, 40x46mm)
    Mk 20 Mod 0 (Automatic Grenade Launcher, 40x46mm)
    M1/AN/M2/M3/M24 (Automatic Cannon, 20x110mm USN)
    Mk 16 Mod 4/5 (Automatic Cannon, 20x110mm USN; deck mount versions of the M3 and M24)
    M39A1/A2/A3 (Automatic Cannon, 20x102mm; based on the Mauser MG 213C Cannon)
    Mk 11 Mod 0/5 (Twin-Barrel Automatic Cannon, 20x110mm USN)
    Mk 12 Mod 0 (Automatic Cannon, 20x110mm USN)
    M195 (Rotary-Barreled Automatic Cannon, 20x102mm)
    M140/E3/E5 (Automatic Cannon, 30x100mm)
    M188/E1 (Automatic Cannon, 30x113mm)

    By the way, I personally believe we should go back to the 7.62 caliber weapon as standard, with much more training in shooting of all kinds, not just for targets. Only snipers are taught much of wind drift, incline and decline shots, bullet drop, etc.
    If you even notice, the idiots that go nuts here in the states and go into a school or office building or restraunt with an auto weapon, end up killing a couple of people and wasting hundreds of rounds. At the same time, the nut that goes into similar places with a pistol, kills a dozen or more, with far less expenditure of ammo.
    I was against getting rid of the 7.62 and going to the Mattel toy currently used, just as I was against droping the 45 and going to the 9. However, I have been describing what IS, not what should be.
     
  19. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You did mention civilians getting in the way. I am not sure how it works today, but "back in the day" most of us tried to avoid starting any action with a civilian, but, once the lead started flying, there was no such thing as a civilian. Despite political thought, rules of engagement and the like, once the firing starts, no soldier with any sense or who wants to survive is going to avoid fire, because it MIGHT be a civilian. The ones that do, do not come back. Civilian causalities are an ugly and unavoidable part of war. The same holds true for "friendly fire" casualties, they will happen.
     
  20. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Things have changed. With RCOs and proper training well-aimed shots are emphasized for Infantry, particularly in the Marine Corps.

    I've heard of all of your so-called "auto-cannons". That's just not lingo that the Marine Corps uses nowdays. I never once heard them called that. Also, only one of those, the Mk-19, is a weapon system that Infantry would employ.

    Every Marine is taught windage and elevation in Boot Camp. My Infantry training expounded on that even further. Our optics make it easy to make windage and elevation adjustments on the fly. People who go on shooting rampages with assault rifles and don't do much damage probably shoot like you apparently were trained to. Assault rifles in the hands of amaueters aren't nearly as effective also. A fully automatic assault rifle is really only MAYBE of use in very close quarters combat. Even then, SF and SWAT teams (the guys who make a living on CQB) are generally taught to fire very controlled single shots and double taps.
     
  21. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    First off, since the terms windage and elevation are not what I was talking about when speaking of wind drift and shooting at inclines and declines, it is apparent you were not taught much, which sustains my statement. In the second place, a three round burst mode of fire is an AUTOMATIC fire weapon. It may not be FULLY automatic, but it is AUTOMATIC since it fires THREE rounds with one squeeze of the trigger. You can avoid the fact by calling it burst, but it remains an auto firing method of sending three rounds down range. In the third place, the .223, 5.56, 22 caliber current main weapon of the military is a toy. It main purpose in being used is that it allows the individual soldier to carry more ammo, to waste in the general direction of the enemy, since more ammo, means more hits, that is after you fire at least 20,000 rounds. The 5.56 is less accurate at the longer ranges than the 7.62 which has confirmed kills at distances of one mile. The 5.56 has less muzzle energy and therefore less killing power. The only good thing (at least as far as the military is concerned) is that the weapon weighs less than the 7.62, which means a soldier can hump more ammo, and the ammo is lighter, which means a soldier can hump more ammo. Therefore the ONE advanatage to the modern m-16, m-4 class weapon is it allows more ammo to be fired--which again supports my point about what the main usage of the weapon is, to toss bullets downrange, nothing more. Enough bullets equals hits, accuracy is not involved. When Accuracy is wanted in a soldier, they use anything from the 7.62 to the 50 caliber sniper weapons. They do not in general use the Mattel Toy that the average soldier carries.

    So. once again, the modern military infantry task is to put lots of ammo downrange in the direction of the enemy, 'nuff said.
     
  22. tomteapack

    tomteapack New Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,401
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have shot competition matches with handguns for more than 40 years, and DOUBLE-TAP is a term I have never heard applied to military usage. It is basically a term for pistol shooters in life fire action or simulation, which means to quickly fire two aimed shots to the same target before addressing a new target. What exactly was your meaning?

    I have attended the shoots at Camp Perry a number of times and NEVER heard anyone with a long gun refer to a "double-tap". To the best of my knowledge it only is used with handguns, either pistols or revolvers. (by the way, I used pistol in the gunsmith vernacular, meaning an auto feeding handgun, as opposed to a wheel gun or revolver, not in the generic term meaning any short barreled weapon)
     
  23. Herkdriver

    Herkdriver New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    21,346
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Never been infantry, but I've heard the term...
    It's also called "controlled pair" and it is part of close quarters training.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxPxxzZ3vNM"]THE ART OF THE CONTROLLED PAIR (PLUS BONUS) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  24. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I don't care about your competitive shooting. Your attempting to discredit me by using all your fancy competitive shooting skills. I was trained as a modern infantryman. To me windage is the adjustments you make for the affect of the wind on your bullet traveling downrange. Elevation was the adjustment you make to compensate for the drop of the bullet at range. All of this was taught to me and could easily be adjusted for on the fly while firing our accurate M16/M4s with RCOs attached. We were also taught that when firing in MOUT situations from on top of a building or up at a building to compensate for the different trajectory of the bullets. We didn't have time, as competitive shooters or snipers do, to make exact adjustments as we could for elevation and windage. Instead we just "fudged" it, trying to compensate as best we could.

    Technically a 3 round burst selector makes a rifle "automatic". So this would technically apply to the M16/4. I attempted to make the distinction by saying "fully-automatic". You're just trying to argue semantics now.

    You forgot two added advantages of the 5.56NATO. First, it is more capable of penetrating body armor than many 7.62 rounds (notably the 7.62X39mm). Secondly, it has less recoil than most 7.62 rounds, which gives it an added advantage in close quarters combat.

    The mission of the modern day Infantryman, as defined by the Marine Corps is to "locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or repel the enemy’s assault by fire and close combat." Nowhere does it say "to put lots of ammo downrange in the direction of the enemy, 'nuff said." Unofficially, during any firefight, we were taught this basic mantra: "Find it, fix it, flank it, f*** it." Sitting idly inplace during a fireight is dangerous and often gets you killed. The name of the game is manuever. You establish a base of fire (SAWs, crewserved weapons, some rifleman) then manuever and close on the enemy. Well-aimed shots in conjunction with automatic fire provides the best suppression possible. Every half-competent nation in the world teaches it's infantrymen the same thing. The military moved away from the "spray an pray" of your day for a very well-considered reason. They didn't just arbitararily decide to do it one day, they researched WWII, Korea, Vietnam and countless other wars, did tests, and carried out many many tests. The only people who fire their rifles blindly on full-automatic today are the Taliban and other poorly trained militias.
     
  25. IgnoranceisBliss

    IgnoranceisBliss Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    5,201
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    A controlled pair is two rapid well-aimed shots. A hammer pair is two shots fired as quickly as possible at the target, typically followed by a well-aimed headshot. Both are used in close quarters combat.
     

Share This Page