US Marines to based outside Darwin, Australia

Australia does not need protecting unless China is making one hell of a buildup that we no nothing about.

 

Australia does not need protecting unless China is making one hell of a buildup that we no nothing about.

We are not going their out of altruism, but national interest.

 

I've not seen evidence to support that any incompatibility is related to Islam, per se.

If you have some, I would like to see it.

I think you could argue more easily that there are some other cultural traditions that are less compatible, a fact which has contributed significantly to the destruction of indigenous cultures around the globe.

I guess I'm also curious about what constitues "a western way of life".

a lot of things that we define as a "western way of life" now would have been out of place in 1950's/1960's Australia.

I know that from experience.

 

most Muslims do not practice polygamy, and there are westerners who do (admittedly these tend to be relatively rare, but these people would argue quite strongly that this is "normal" to them). There are also other cultures where polygamy is still practised.

women's rights - in actual fact, women in Islam had better legal rights than their christian sisters until relatively recently,

and in general in Islamic societies (with notable exceptions) women in Muslim countries are not worse of than women in other emerging nations - again - there are some exceptions.

Through my work with people from international communities I have come across Kenyan Christian women who have stated that in Kenyan Muslim communities women have more say than they do in their own christian communities. I don't know that this is true, of course - but I do wonder why these women would say that.

A friend of mine who has spent extended periods of time in Islamic cultures, and who also lived in Thailand for a long time also observed that the real position of women is better in the islamic countries she has lived in than in Thailand - which is a buddhist country.

My own observations are also that its very difficult to be black and white about these things. In the Islamic countries I have been in, I have had mixed feelings re the status of women - in some ways I see a lot of positives, in other ways negatives.

I think mothers are more respected in Islamic cultures than they are in the west - including elderly women, and honour killing is also NOT inherent to islam. Most Muslims I have spoken to re this issue are as shocked by these events as westerners, and lets face it - its not something that occurs only in islamic communities.

Also, there are a lot of strong feminist views within islam.

It is, quite frankly, exposing a lack of understanding to lump all of Islamic culture with the extremes of the Taliban and the saudis, and does you no credit.

 

courtney - australians aren't so paranoid that they need to constantly engage in sabre rattling like the US, and your constant talk about "protecting" us from our neighbours is quite irksome.

yes there are sometimes problems with communication - but taking an aggressive stance is NOT going to help sort these out.

this whole base thing is for YOUR benefit, not ours, and the Australian government and opposition are kow towing to american imperialism, not focussing on our interests.

you recognise that three of the largest emerging economies are in this region, and you want to have a continued presence in the region so that you can still have some influence.


The US strategy - despite your secretary of state engaging in "diplomacy" (which is US speak means listen to us and do things our way) is to embed a military presence as a baleful reminder of the threat you can pose to others.

thats the way bullies exercise influence.

its a bad strategy when others are also becoming powerful, and we should not be part of it.

Aggressive stances are more likely to lead to conflict than taking a more cooperative approach, and by showing ourselves as militarily aligned with you, we are not doing ourselves any favours at all.

 

The practise of polygamy is not exclusive to Muslims and it is not practised by the majority of Muslim people in the world.

The majority of Muslim women have legal rights equal to or superior to western women. Domestic abuse and violence towards women is far less common in Muslim countries.

I have lived in and visited a number of majority Muslim countries including, Malaysia, Indonesia and Pakistan. What about you?

 

This must be the joke of the century, straight out of the mouth of a braying donkey:

'Also, there are a lot of strong feminist views within islam.'

Yes, probably the same feminists who were stoned to death by their gruesome husbands,because they no longer wanted to be treated as donkeys and 'mounted' whenever their husbands so desired. It's about the time the real feminists of the Free World gave them support instead of platitudes.

 

Americans are not paranoid either, however we are keen to understand the value of deference. This is why no war has been tough near American soil since the war of independence that involved a foreign invader.

I hardly consider 2500 troops serving in a mutual training capacity a n agtersive stance towards anyone, especially the 1 billion that populate china.

Really. You do not know anything about the military. If you are a military commander and you have the opportunity to gain combat knolege from a military that has been at war for over a decade, you would take it. This will give australia the training only a country as skilled at warfare as the US is. If you were to be offered training by the best in your field at there cost, would you not accept it?

Do you realize why they are emerging economies. Let me ask you where US forces are stationed in this region? Then let me ask you as to why they are stationed there and how that relates to the emerging economies in the region. I know it is a bit nlmuch to wrap your head around the cause and effect of this situation. But try to use a bit of logic and reasoning here for once instead of emotional ideological rhetoric.

Last I checked, the US was not threatening sanctions on Australia. Not sure where you get the idea we forced ourselves on your country. We are there on your terms. I have been to bases all over the world and we have always looked at it in the way that we are there on the terms of the host nations govgovernment[

Your country is showing its belief in a system where people are free to express themselves. Unlike china,Iran, north Korea, and Vietnam... among others. What other country could you see yourself aligned with in the region that I s not aligned with the US?

 

There are certain parts of the Muslim world where women enjoy almost the same rights as their Western counterparts. Places like Lebanon and Turkey treat women relatively well. However, I'd beg to say the majority of Muslim countries treat their women very poorly. Typically, the more poor the country the worse they treat their women. I've found that Bedouins are some of the worst when it comes to treating women. Many Muslims in Western countries give their women equal rights. These are the ones that campaign about equality in Islam, but unfortunately tend to not represent the majority of their brethern in the Middle East/Africa. A lot of westerners, perhaps in an effort to counter anti-muslim sentiment, will jump on the campaigning of these Western Muslims and try blanket the Muslims in the Arab world as compassionate right-giving people. Unfortunately, this generally isn't the case.

 

..................................

 

The Doctrine of Separation of Church and State.

Feminism.

Equal rights for LGBT people.

 

well, these don't appear to be western traditions, based on some of the opinions on these forums.

 

all you are doing is again revealing that you do not know much about women in Islam.

you really should educate yourself if you want to discuss these things.

otherwise you will continue to come across as an ignorant little bigot.

 

where was I talking about deference?

the evidence is that our military are at least as skilled as yours

so you have more bases in China, Indonesia and India than other countries?

I was not aware of that.

these economies emergence may be influenced by US markets (especially China) but they are also influenced by a whole range of other factors - none of which has anything to do with the US military.

you shouldn't be so rude to people. when you don't know what you are talking about.

it just makes you look like a petulant child.

I don't think you have been reading my posts.

Our current government is more pro US than any previous australian government.

it is not about alignment. we need to be independent.

 

I disagree that it is necessarily the more poor the country the worse they treat women - this is often the case, but you only have to look at KSA to see an example of a wealthy country where women's rights are worse than in many poorer countries.

Its also been my experience that poorer countries treating women badly are not exclusively Muslim.

 

Don't be an apologist for the men who beat women based on culture or religious doctrine.

 

they don't

a few years ago when I was involved in organising a forum on domestic violence, I found that muslim men were MORE concerned abou stopping domestic violence in their communities than western men are.

a lot of western men seem to think its a women's issue.

muslim men are more likely to see it as a community issue.

and DV rates are just as high, if not higher, among a lot of other groups including Christians, Hindus and Buddhists - and among people of various ethnic and national groups.

 

Atheists, Xtians, Hindus and Buddhists do not have a religious doctrine which imposes disabilities on women.

 

And you are continually droning on, with a myopic eye, by pushing an abstract myth regarding the freedom of women in the Muslim world. Even a drover's dog (an Aussie expression) knows that they are treated just slightly better than cattle by their husbands. I even saw a program the other day (SBS) where a Muslim woman (young and educated) declared she would be happy of her husband took another wife, or two. Some education!

The Muslim women have certainly been brainwashed!

 

disabilities?

interesting word.


really Albert, you don't know much about the position of women in Hinduism or Buddhist societies - that much is clear.

there are no devadasi in Islam - but maybe you think child temple prostitutes are a good thing?

WRT christianity - its not christianity that respects women's rights, it is secularism.

if you look at our own religious texts, women don't come out too badly, and it is a fact that in Islam, women had more rights than women in Christian societies up until only the last century or so - if that.

and atheism - no there is no religious text to atheism - and pretending atheism is a doctrine is ... just stupid.

 

and she is most likely not typical.

In another time and place I have met muslim women who were co wives. I wouldn't say that a was a good arrangement for anyone, and it was clear that they were not happy with this.

Among the many Muslim women I know and have known from numerous countries, it is pretty clear that most frown upon polygamy. In some countries where polygamy is allowed, in one place I have been, a man must have his first wife's permission. there have been relatively few polygamous marriages since this requirement was introduced.

what do you think of theravada buddhist women?

are they like cattle too?

I suspect a drover's dog knows more than you do. you've never been anywhere or ever spoken to women from different cultural backgrounds - so you know nothing about how they may or may not be treated.

 

Mainly because of our close relationship and joint training exercises.

I guess it was to much to ask you to tie economic development in Asia to the US military presence. The US basically re wrote the Japanese constitution and gave the country a foundation to grow on financially after WW2. The presence of the US military opened up trade agreements. The presence of the US military has also ensured the region remains peaceful which has allowed economies to grow.

Wrong. Security is paramount to a growing economy. You can't grow economically if your neighbor's are trying to invade you.

Rude? Rude is dismissing a guest in your house as useless and harmful as you have with US troop presence.




I don't think you have been reading my posts.

Our current government is more pro US than any previous australian government.




it is not about alignment. we need to be independent.[/QUOTE]

 

What's "KSA"?

 

Arab countries have a big issue with women's rights. No matter how much you try, you can't downplay that. Do other countries have problems too? Certainly, but its a huge problem in that part of the world and trying to downplay it by comparing it to Western domestic abuse is doing hundreds of millions of arab women a disservice.

 

Sorry to be so woefully stupid my sharp tongued darling. You may be right about the disabilities women labor under in Hinduism. Are they as great as the disabilities women are subjected to by Islam? I think you're wrong about Buddhism. Tell me why you think you are right.