US sanctions on Riyadh would mean Washington is stabbing itself

Discussion in 'United States' started by Destroyer of illusions, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    A murder took place at his embassy with his hit squad. The man murdered was a journalist critic of his regime. He's a dictator and I find it incredulous that an act this so horrifically egregious could happen without his approval and/or command.

    They set the guy up, butchered him, dissected him, and hid the pieces. All because of things he wrote. Reminds me a bit of the Nazi German case of Hans and Sophie Scholl, writers for "The White Rose". Though in their case, they were guillotined.

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2018/dying-truth-hans-sophie-scholl
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  2. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    That is a long list of conclusions. Note that you offer no support for any of them.
     
  3. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The news reports I've read are enough. The Saudi's history of silencing disidents is enough. The fact that they can't produce his body is enough. That fact that a hit squad was sent in made up of the crown prince's entourage is enough. The fact that he wrote articles critical of the Saudis is enough. The fact that there are reports coming fromTurkey and US intelligence that support this conclusion is enough. And the fact that I have eyes and mind to comprehend these facts is enough.

    Everything else is BS to obfuscate the murder, and let the Saudis get away with it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  4. Carl Von Clausewitz

    Carl Von Clausewitz Well-Known Member

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    The other countries do too also only they possess super hypersonic stealth missiles that we don't have in technology.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  5. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here's one conservative's view.

    It is in the interests of the American people that liberal democracy, such as we have in the US, Europe, South Korea, Japan and Latin America (mostly), as flawed as it is, spread over the whole world. The best way to prevent war is for all nations to become 'European' in their internal arrangements: the British, French and Germans have shed each other's blood liberally over the last few centuries, but no more. This is a good thing, for everyone.

    The way to do this is NOT (usually) via the bayonet. As that great conservative Robespierre observed, people do not love missionaries with bayonets. If there is a genuine civil war raging in a country between democrats and non-democrats, intervention might be justified. For instance, the democracies should have taken the side of the Spanish Republic in 1936 against Franco's fascists.

    Lasting change in a country has to come from within and have a mass base. The normal development of capitalism creates the mass base for democracy: an educated mainly urban population. So whatever we can do to help a country develop economically -- mainly, trade with it -- will help, in the long run, democracy there. On the way, courageous democrats like the murdered man are critical -- they are the leaven in the bread of humanity. They should get all the support we can give them, although, tactically 'official' government support is often a bad idea. Much better for this to occur privately, via organizations like the Committee to Protect Journalists, or George Soros Open Society foundation.

    In a case like this, the democracies should raise all kinds of hell. It should be made extremely embarrassing for the Saudi government. They should be getting at least the treatment that Russian and Chinese and Iranian tyrants get when they murder their own dissidents.

    The exact mechanisms for creating this embarrassment are, of course, tricky. There is another competing 'principle' at work, namely, non-interference in other countries' affairs. But life is full of contradictions. Cancelling attendance at that summit that was supposed to be held in Saudi Arabia is a good start.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  6. Carl Von Clausewitz

    Carl Von Clausewitz Well-Known Member

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    The irony of neo liberal democracy is that it has destroyed itself and guaranteed it has no future via global foreign immigration.
     
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  7. Doug1943

    Doug1943 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There has always been immigration. What has happened is that (1) capitalism has developed things so fast, that now we can have mass immigration, cheaply, and (2) the superiority of life in a developed capitalist democracy is much easier to learn about for those who live elsewhere, and (3) paradoxically, while the growth of the mass media (TV, movies, internet) has helped to undermine the old, backward, traditionalist societies, they have also made it easier NOT to assimilate once the immigrants arrive in the new country, because they make it very easy to stay in touch with the old culture. (Example: Arab women who stay at home and watch TV programs in Arabic; young Muslims who watch jihadi videos.)

    So mass immigration can create a backlash in the countries immigrants are coming to, especially where it appears uncontrolled. The Left, who think in moralistic terms, just shriek 'racism!' -- and some of them even find the idea of 'assimilation' racist, because it implies our culture is better than, say, Pakistan's or Kenya's. (Which it is, of course.)

    Sensible people have to think in a different way.
     
  8. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    The Visigoths do not like our weapons - they like theirs.
     
  9. Ddyad

    Ddyad Well-Known Member

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    You are one of the very few Americans that still believe the MSM.
    Unsupported "news" reports alone will not be persuasive even if found admissible in an American court.
    In Turkey, or the KSA? Perhaps.
     
  10. HumbledPi

    HumbledPi Well-Known Member

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    Saudi Arabia, is not, has not and never has been an ally of the United States. It is a leach on the United States. We need them for nothing geopolitically. We are an energy independent country and if you look at North America between Mexico and Canada, we are the most energy rich place on earth. This is a despotic regime. They have imported Islamic extremism to every corner of the world. Fifteen of the nineteen hijackers of 9/11 were Saudis. They are engaged in war crimes in Yemen where hundreds of thousands have been killed with American weaponry. In the same way that Paul Manafort's criminality was an open secret in Washington, exactly who MbS is, is also an open secret in D.C.

    There's nothing more shameful than a newly inaugurated U.S. president that goes to Saudi Arabia on his first official trip, a place where everyone hailed MbS as a progressive because women can now drive a car alone. We need them for NOTHING. The Saudis, with their money, have corrupted the American system of government. It's time for every PR agency in this country that has an office in Riyadh to shut it down. It's time for every lobbying firm to fire the Saudis. It's time for every state pension fund to divest of Saudi money. It's time for every technology company and every media company that is taking dirty Saudi money to send it back. This is a disgrace. This moment in time, what we've seen is the murder of a U.S. resident with American citizen children, a Washington Post columnist, with a complicit president who has called journalists the 'enemy of the people'. The American people should rise up against this. We should put truth to the lie about who this guy is and what this regime is.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  11. Carl Von Clausewitz

    Carl Von Clausewitz Well-Known Member

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    There has never been global chain foreign immigration as there is now which threatens the native majority ethnic demographic populations of whole entire western nations.

    Has immigration always existed? Absolutely but on a much more smaller and slower scale.

    Western neo liberal democracy will destroy itself because when you turn whole entire ethnic majorities into future minorities there will be no way democracy has any future hope of remaining intact. As we all know democracy is majority rule, right?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  12. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    funny how I often cite right wing sources and people here call me far left
     
  13. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    OK, fine, pundits were a type of spy according to some.
     
  14. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    They're not in uniform. If you're not in uniform what differentiates you from a common criminal? Spies also kill noncombatants. I'm not sure if spying itself is a war crime but there are several things which spies have to do pretty routinely which are war crimes
     
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  15. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Last News I have are that Trump announced serious consequences for Saudis if they are responsible for the death of the journalist. His minister of finance also cancelled an important meeting with them now.
     
  16. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    You know that a M1A2 costs the same?
     
  17. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense ... we do not sell because we rate Saudi Arabia the same way bad as others and so not being worth to get the tanks. And Iran did not get a single weapon of us... and because we see it correctly totally different in case of Iran as your idiot in the White House about the Iran Deal and so we Europeans give him a f**k you as answer is another story and does not make us to be Iranian friends!
     
  18. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Yes

    I learned something about the costs of tanks thanks to you
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
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  19. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    You are buying natural gas from putin and russia who are no better than the iranians

    As for iran I suspect its only a matter of time before germany does end the pretense and throw in your lot with them against the US
     
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  20. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Reality will be the final judge.
     
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  21. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

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    We are buying gas from Putin because we have signed an agreement with Russia about 20 years ago for national interest, not the gas tap because of a rebellious Ukraine that wants to pay its gas bill to Gazprom in Russia for political reasons. Before Northstream, all gas was piped through the Ukraine to us and when Russia turns it, then nothing came to us!
    Apart from that, it must be made clear that despite all the trouble, Putin has not once been in breach of contract or even once threatened to turn off the gas tap.
    In comparison, the behavior of the US is very different to us ... and we are actually allied!

    The general question, however, is at the end of all points: is Russia really that bad or so much more evil than the rest, including the US?
    My answer is clearly NO!
     
  22. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    And what does all this show: immoral money creates immoral action...and the world is addicted to hyprocisy while committing intellectual suicide.

    Welcome to the coming hell. You’ve earned it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  23. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    This you ask crazy in the White House and Congress. Congress demands to punish the SA and Trump said he would do it. After these statements, you can either get or economic problems, but remain a "formidable force", or "lose face", as the Japanese say. In other words, if the United States refuses confrontation with the SA, it will once again prove that the United States is a paper tiger.
     
  24. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    You call Lenin, who created the world's first socialist state of social justice - a loser? :roflol::roflol::roflol:

    I wonder what you have achieved?
     
  25. Destroyer of illusions

    Destroyer of illusions Banned

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    I join your applause.
     
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