Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve

Discussion in 'Science' started by Hoosier8, Sep 5, 2021.

  1. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve


    https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/

    This is nothing new. This article is from 2018.

    Think of a viral infection as a swarm. Mutations happen in the swarm but are overwhelmed by the original version. Stopping the original version gives a mutation the edge.

    Snip…

     
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  2. joesnagg

    joesnagg Banned

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    Don't matter, The Apocalyptic Church of Covid brooks NO heresies....just watch this thread, LOL.
     
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  3. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Mutation would occur when the virus encounters a person who has previously had the infection before as well. The virus doesn't
    care if it's facing a natural immunity or synthetic immunity - it's going to try and find a way to survive - it's what they do.
     
  4. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    ......
     
  5. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but smallpox is a virus. And it is no longer a problem. It has been irraticated.
     
  6. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Only true if the mutation is vaccine resistant. If it is vaccine resistant then the vaccine doesn't matter in the first place. Much ado about nothing.
     
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  7. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Irrelevant.
     
  8. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Why not? It wasn't herd immunity.
     
  9. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely true because the natural immunity comes with a better T-cell response. Also, the worse the virus, the sicker you get, the stronger your response.
    This means that less dangerous viruses will propogate easier because the response is smaller. You didn't get as sick and produced less antibodies and are more likely to get reinfected. Thereby, the less dangerous variation becomes more dominant.
    With vaccines, the level of antibodies and T-cell memory will be consistent regardless of the danger of the virus variant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  10. 21Bronco

    21Bronco Banned

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    And COVID is not small pox. Vaccines aren't going to get rid of COVID the way we got rid of small pox. At least not any time soon.
     
  11. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    I agree, especially when people fail to take the vaccine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
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  12. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    You are the beneficiary of government propaganda. Firstly, small pox is not a corona virus. Corona viruses - influenza, common cold, etc. are able to survive immunity and become seasonal visitors that change but never disappear. Covid could be different but there isn't any reason to think it is. Most likely, after everyone has been infected, it will settle into a being a manageable seasonal infection like its predecessors.

    I agree that vaccination is the way to go. However, not because it will wipe out covid. It probably won't. It is the way to go because it lowers the rate of infection spread and lessens the symptoms from infection. This isn't what the government tells you. It is what the science and the experience of practicing medical doctors tell you. Listen to them. They will help you get past the government propaganda. Continue to urge people to vaccinate. It is the right thing to do. But don't see it as a panacea or the end of this virus.
     
  13. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Think whatever you want. And take a chance on not being vaccinated. Covid will definitely thin the herd
     
  14. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anything. I was just sharing the current science. I have been vaccinated. I recommend it to everyone. You criticized something I didn't say.
     
  15. politicalcenter

    politicalcenter Well-Known Member

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    Apologies...
     
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  16. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Accepted.
     
  17. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Vaccine programs around the world have been successful at preventing infections and saving lives. History shows that vaccines don't erode to zero. To slow the evolutionary process of the virus it's important to slow the spread of the virus right now! People who get vaccinated are at lower risk for getting infected. Seems to me society has no choice but to quickly vaccinate as many people as possible, especially reaching herd immunity, and if necessary later to deal with variants...
     
  18. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As the UK shows with Pfizer after 4 months the protection from getting infected drops to 16% so like most vaccines it doesn’t protect you from getting infected or spreading the virus but it helps protect from more serious illness yet the vaccinated are catching Covid and the usual people with many morbidities are dying so it isn’t a magic bullet.

    The vaccines will not produce herd immunity because they do not create immunity memory like actual infection will.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2021
  19. Espinoza

    Espinoza Banned

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    Actually the flu was evolving for billions of years before the first vaccine
     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And this line of virus is actually very prone to mutate. Which is why each year they have to try and create a new Flu Vaccine. Predicting the past mutations, and hoping they guess right and can create one that reduces or eliminates the next strain to pop up. Most times they get it at least partway right, but sometimes they miss and the vaccine has no effect.

    The thing about this kind of virus unlike most others is that it mutates very easily, and very fast. This is actually not common among most virus, which is why making an inoculation against most is not that hard.

    And HIV is yet another. We know now that HIV started as a strain of SIV, and probably crossed from apes to humans in the mid-late 19th century. Most likely through poorly or uncooked meat. And it stayed there in the region of Cameroon. Known to the locals as the "Slim Disease", with most who caught it lasting 10-20+ years before death. But when it moved to Europe and the US in the late 1950's and early 1960's, it then started to evolve quickly. Most likely because it subverts the immune system itself, and a stronger immune system means it becomes even stronger.

    However, while the virus is stronger than it was a century ago, they are now realizing that it was never a single virus. They now know there are over a dozen different strains of the virus, each of them seeming to be distantly related but arising in different forms in different groups of monkeys in Africa. Some of which seem communicable to humans, some are not. But each grew stronger when exposed to Europeans.

    Not unlike syphilis. Which was largely a low danger skin disease, before sailors brought it from the Americas back to Europe. And like resistant diseases like TB, when introduced to the much stronger immune systems of Europeans the disease grew remarkably stronger. And it did not mutate much (neither did HIV), but it did grow stronger.

    It was not that long ago that many thought that HIV and Ebola were viruses that mutated easily. But through more research, they are now realizing that is actually not the case, simply a case of multiple strains breaking into the human population in a small window of time. This started to be realized when the only strain of ebola that humans are shown to be asymptomatic carriers of came from East Asia and not Africa. That shows a very ancient split. And while Ebola Reston was once hoped to be used as the basis of a vaccination against the other strains, this was later shown to be fruitless as it split from the other strains in Africa so long ago that the immune treatment is ignored by the African strains.
     
  21. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    The mRNA vaccination instructs cells to create "spike proteins." These proteins simulate part of the SARS-CoV-2 (novel coronavirus) cell structure and trick the body into believing it's infected with the virus. In the case of the mRNA vaccines, your body is never exposed to the germ but is still able to produce an effective immune response...
     
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  22. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The current engineered treatment is at best weak. The reason is that it only targets one of the four Covid proteins. Three external and one internal. This allows mutations to proliferate more easily. All the virus has to do is mutate one protein. If it targeted two proteins it is harder to mutate two proteins at the same time. After vaccinations mutations have increased by multiples.

    This technology could be the future but as some virologists claim it needs much more study. It is a relatively immature science. As we are seeing now the vaccines are not stopping infections in the vaccinated. Maybe it improves outcomes but that is not a real known for variants.

    One thing this current treatment does not do is create immunity memory like infection does because infections create immune response to more that one protein spike. Even then it will mutate and come back next year like all Corona viruses. Four of our cold viruses are Corona viruses.

    We are probably already past a pandemic and are experiencing an endemic the fear mongering notwithstanding.
     
  23. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    Researchers found, for example, that nearly everyone routinely carries pathogens, microorganisms known to cause illnesses. In healthy individuals, however, pathogens cause no disease; they simply coexist with their host and the rest of the human microbiome, the collection of all microorganisms living in the human body.Jun 13, 2012
    https://www.nih.gov/news-events/new...d, for example, that,living in the human body.
     
  24. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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  25. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    One reason to be exposed to everything instead of trying to protect against everything. That builds resistance.
     
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