Veganism is a religion

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Thedimon, Sep 9, 2018.

  1. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You’re trying to lump large groups of people together on the basis of generic characteristics, which is rarely done for positive reasons. You also regularly express your dislike and disagreement with atheism (as you view it) and so defining people on the basis of their atheism alone seems to me to implicitly associate them with those negative views.

    You’re still evading my core objection to your position though. If you were saying everyone has their own individual religion, I wouldn’t mind as much. What you are saying is that atheism is a singular defined religion. That every single person around the entire world who doesn’t believe in any gods is actively following exactly the same religious, with exactly the same beliefs and practices. That is simply ridiculous.

    You’ve also said that agnosticism is a religion and that vegetarianism is a religion too. How would that even work for people who are both agnostic and vegetarian?
     
  2. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Yep humans are mammals, homosapiens, and I can go on and on and ON about all the groupings based on general characteristics, its common and normal.
    well that would be disagreement with board atheists more specificly the neoatheists.
    I have never said anything different, what gives you the idea I did?
    Not at all, that does not mean that certain general characteristics cannot be legitimately assigned to groups practicing atheism which you are to avoid admitting.
    you already said youtself, that religion is the formation and practice of value/conscience based beliefs.
     
  3. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I never said that wasn't common and normal. I said lumping groups of people together (maybe more clearly put as dividing people in to separate groups, notably "us" and "them") is rarely done for positive reasons. That's what you're doing.
    Probably. Individuals can have the same belief on a single question yet still be entirely different in every other way? Almost as if atheism isn't a religion. :cool:
    Becasue you've never said anything about individuals. You only ever talk about groups and work on the presumption that anyone you've determined is in that group has the characteristics you imagine that group shares. That's because it's much easier to attack abstract groups that actually debate with individuals.
    Nobody "practices" atheism. It is something people are, not something people do. You either believe in gods or you don't. You might be able to identify specific sub-sets of atheists who do actively share common beliefs and practices beyond that but what those people do don't define atheism and any criticism (or indeed celebration) of them should be targeted specifically, not at all atheists.
    A set of beliefs and practices. That doesn't apply to atheism, theism, agnosticism or vegetarianism. The first three are singular beliefs and the last a singular practice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  4. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    ah thats right atheists dont have anything they believe what so ever.
    well you see when you add up all the singular beliefs you have a set of beliefs and that set of beliefs makes a religion which is the practice of beliefs.
    Sure they do. Its a belief system.
    nobody practices Christianity either, its something people do as well.
    Oh? Since when is 'actively' sharing was a requirement?
    Of course they define atheism with what they do, just like muslims are defined by what they do, and christians and deists and so forth, are all defined by what they do.
    individuals make up a group, and you should go to the complaints section if you dont like the forum rules. Groups of a feather flock together.
    Ah so you realy are aware that groups are made up of individuals after all. Last time I checked all atheists take the 'religious' position there is no God, and with that position throw out everything God stands for......or are you ready to admit that atheists hijacked Gods moral compass repackaged and relabeled it secular?
    Rarely? You cant be serious? People do that to themselves as a form of self identity to distinguish themselves from others that are similar but not quite the same, just like you are trying to do.
     
  5. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Atheists aren’t a separate species, they’re just human beings who, among the literally thousands of personal beliefs and opinions, happen to not believe in the existence of any gods. In every other way imaginable, they’re exactly like you and everyone else.

    Everybody has a massive range of different beliefs and opinions but nobody should be defined by any one of their beliefs alone. I think it’s a mistake to think of atheists, agnostics or vegetarians at all as it encourages divisive thinking. We’re all individual human beings who may well have characteristics such as atheism, agnosticism and/or vegetarianism.

    So you accept that atheism is just one of the many singular beliefs which can make up a religion? So atheism isn’t the religion on its own? That’s the entirety of my point.

    You’re wrong. There are plenty of things some atheists do but that isn’t practicing atheism because plenty of people are atheists without doing those things. The core problem here is that you’re looking at the extreme and high-profile subset of atheists and presuming they represent everyone who doesn’t believe in gods. They do not.

    Well you can’t follow a religion by accident. It has to be something you’re consciously choosing to do.

    You made a subtle but significant grammatical shfit there. For example, you said Muslims define what Muslims are, not that Muslims define what Islam is. Equally, atheists can define what atheists are but not what atheism is. A word defines an entire class of thing and any kind of change of characteristic of some of those things can’t alter the definition of the word.

    Atheism describes the characteristic of not believing in the existence of any god or gods (not necessarily an unconditional denial). That is a theological position, not a religious one. Any religious context depends entirely on what the individual atheist knows and believes of about religions. Many atheists (especially historically) could know absolutely nothing about the specific God you believe in and so their atheism couldn’t be an specific rejection of your God by definition.

    Again, you’re focusing on a subset of atheists and presuming they represent the whole.

    I’m identifying everyone as individuals who should be treated as such. Nobody should be held responsible for the (perceived) crimes and misdemeanours of another regardless of how much they might have in common. I’d have absolutely no problem with you challenging the actions and words of identified individuals. I do object with you saying “Atheists do [bad thing]!”, just as I object when people say “Christians do [bad thing]!”, “Arabs do [bad thing]!” or any other generic accusations. It’s divisive, dangerous and a potential path towards hatred, discrimination, assault and genocide.
     
  6. CourtJester

    CourtJester Well-Known Member

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    Yes you have claimed that veganism falls under the same umbrella as not beating pork but unfortunatly you haven't actually presented any evidence to support that claim.
     
  7. smallblue

    smallblue Well-Known Member

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    Basketball is a religion.
     
  8. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    no its not and I cant think of any way it can be other than metaphorically, but I am certainly open to hear the conditions you think make is a bonafide religion.
     
  9. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    ah so they have literally thousands of personal beliefs.
    Except they have a different religion than everyone else joe.
    Well opinions dont count joe, but its good to know you agree that everyone has a belief system.
    Its the core belief, the 99% big kahuna belief, just like theist is for believing in God..
    I suppose you think that only applies to atheists and not Ch5ristains or theists? Subset is irrelevant, they are the spokesmen, if you disagree with them form your own religious cult and go live! You could have an election to vote in an atheist pope who speaks for all popes.
    If you disagree with your spokesmen thats an internal atheist problem,not mine or anyone elses.
    BINGO, you follow and practice your beliefs, at which point it is outwardly demonstrated as your religion.
    It does all the time however in practice, so I disagree.
    Characteristic, and in doing so atheists take a 'religious' position. Atheism is a denial that God exists, the negation of theism. The new label 'nones' are several magnitudes closer to agnostics than atheists.
    So? You think placing birds of a feather under the same label is a somehow a problem? People who murder are murderers, people who give their lives doing good are saints and so forth, where is the problem with that?
     
  10. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They can have different religions from each other too. Many don't follow a religion at all.

    Please be clear. Are you now accepting that atheism isn't a religion in itself but a belief which can form part of a religion?

    The question of how significant a belief it is to different people is a separate question.

    You're wrong again. I'm talking about general principles which apply to everyone, regardless of their beliefs. I'm not the one trying to divide people in to separate groups.

    They are not my spokemen. Neither you of they can determine who speaks for me and it is very much my problem when you will condemn, dismiss or attack me because you don't like what they say.

    Then stop targeting your attacks at agnostics just because they disagree with your definition of atheism and consider themselves atheist too. Or, maybe just stop attacking generic groups at all and focus on the individuals actually doing things (you consider) wrong.

    So all Muslims are terrorists? All blacks are criminals? All Christians are homophobic? All men are rapists? All internet message board posters are trolls?
     
  11. smallblue

    smallblue Well-Known Member

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    Yoyo is a religion.
     
  12. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    By going vegetarian, we can reduce the impact of climate change, rainforest destruction, and pollution, while saving water and other precious resources. In fact, raising animals for food produces more greenhouse gas emissions than all of the cars, planes, and other forms of transportation combined.

    Protect the Planet With a Vegetarian Diet - ChooseVeg....

    www.chooseveg.com/environment



    So could it be something like a nuclear war, only slower with more deaths in the end?
     
  13. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

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    All of the large organized religions have been heavily perverted by being used as instruments of social control by governments for millenia. Islam and Christianity have been particularly bad this way, to the point that they can seem inherently antithetical to freedom loving people if they are practiced properly. Most authorities within all these religions will dispute this, saying that is a fundamental misinterpretation of the religion's message and they may be right , but is is a misinterpretation that governments don't deny and most religions seem to tacitly agree with it most of the time. Veganism, whatever its other drawbacks, seems to have avoided this onus, and that may explain its appeal to some.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
    Kokomojojo likes this.
  14. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    its not a large organized power with the ability to affect gubmint, however when or if they become the powerful then the gubmint will indoctrinate them to its agenda. SOP
     
  15. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    and that has exactly zero to do with veganism religion.
     
  16. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    Everyone follows their beliefs and acts upon and practices those beliefs which is their religion, you admitted that earlier.
    Absolute not, atheism is in fact a religion, when the belief forms a persons activities. Like banging the neighbors wife, any ism describes a belief form that the person puts into practice forming ones religion.
    So then you think there is no difference between someone who is a psychopath is no different than anyone else......looks like you are running off the deep end joe.
    They are your spokesmen, like it or not, they are speaking in the public eye, setting policy for you because its what we all read! You better write every atheist voicing an opinion and tell them to **** as they are all speaking for you regardless how you feel about it.
    Im agnostic joe, lol Agnostics are neither atheist nor theist.
    Thats the nature of politics joe, if you believe that human sacrifice religions are wrong then you point out that its offensive to your religion. There are no attacks going on here, getting a bit over dramatic are we now?
    huh? I cant fathom how that has any connection? care to explain?
     
  17. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No. If you're incapable of understanding that, you're incapable of understanding the entire point I'm making so there's no point in discussing any further.
     
  18. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    your entire point is abundantly clear joe.
    Because I can appropriately assign labels to 'that of like kind' you want to claim I am attacking everything I place a label on.

    I did not here you step up to the plate when our neo atheists were claiming everything and anyone that was not a confirmed atheist with their label....atheist! Hell as far as they are concerned even rocks are atheist.

    I only pointed that out to see if you had something of value to offer other than your hatred of being acknowledged as part of a larger group 'of like kind ' with respect to some core characteristic as I pointed out.

    The moral of your story is thou shalt not label and identify, even if the person self labels and identifies with the same. So we cant according to you call them what they call themselves :wierdface:
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
  19. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think there are some 583 species of Carnivorous plants that will disagree with vegetarians and vegans.
     
  20. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    This discussion will come to a crashing halt when the ultra advanced civilization who sit up this (universe) show as a flesh farm finally arrive to eat humanity. There will of coarse be a small delay as they debate and experiment as to which is the best way to ‘prepare’ us for consumption. Boiling alive V freezing to death. Fattening until cardiac arrest or forcing us onto a treadmill and administering nausia inducing drugs. The possibilities are endless, especially if we consider the Chinese and their awful practices, the latest being the use of elephant skin for cosemetics. Most of it imported from Cambodia etc, many of the animals skinned alive as they enjoy doing to dogs.
    We are the vilest creatures on the planet and we may just get everything we deserve in the long run.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not longer a vegitarian. Time spent in India where cows are regarded as sacred and not killed for food had me notice large numbers of the poor beasts in appaling states of health wandering the streets and villages with nobody interested in attending to their welfare. No market value, no care.
     
  21. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    Before the rise of the slaughtering house in the late 1800s, do you believe many persons ate meat often? So this lady raised her own livestock and is going to slaughter and prepare the foods for her own party. In some parts of the world, their livestock is their means of supply, it is their income. For her to want to use some of her 'income' to provide for her guests, that would be her 'gift' to her guests.

    As far as the 'vegans' are concerned, they might be attacking large slaughterhouse type animal cruelty over single isolated preparations of 'animal flesh' for personal events. And if such vegans were wishing another person to 'die' and suffer pains on the internet, which is a luxury for both them and the facebook poster, that would only suggest that they, the attackers, are using their incomes to attack others.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018

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