Want to abolish the EC? Please read this

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by FatBack, Feb 18, 2020.

  1. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    OK, so you want to abolish the EC? Tell me why these handfull of counties should speak for everyone?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Darthcervantes

    Darthcervantes Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thanks for sharing this. I'm gonna have to use it every time I see a thread complaining about the EC
     
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  3. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Why do you want wide open, unpopulated empty space to determine who the leader of this country is, instead of actual citizens? The few counties you reference, is where the majority of americans live.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  4. wgabrie

    wgabrie Well-Known Member Donor

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    I'm a democrat, but I see the benefit of the EC. I don't support getting rid of the EC.
     
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  5. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Then we should make NO CLAIMS of living in a democracy!!!People count and they vote, states counties and geographic areas do not vote!!!
     
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  6. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    It's THE PEOPLE who pay the countries taxes!!!
     
  7. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    Our population is roughly 360 million people, you think more than half of them are living in those several counties? I bet it's much less than half.
     
  8. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    My point is people, not wide open unpopulated empty space should be determining who the president is.
     
  9. Rush_is_Right

    Rush_is_Right Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, we are not a democracy!!! You have been told over and over, way back to DH, we are a representative Republic!!
     
  10. KAMALAYKA

    KAMALAYKA Banned

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    All those points are nonsense.

    1. Why should the minority have a larger voice just because they're dispersed over a greater geography?

    2. By your logic, we shouldn't elect governors by direct vote, either. Heck, let's vote all federal and state offices through an electoral college.

    3. If we used the EC as the Founding Fathers had intended, they would be free agents, able to vote as they see fit. They probably would have kept Trump from office.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
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  11. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Do we or do we not keep telling the rest of the world that we are a democracy????
     
  12. YourBrainIsGod

    YourBrainIsGod Well-Known Member

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    Those numbers aren’t even accurate.

    The president represents all Americans, makes sense for each individual’s vote to count equally.

    Lower population states already have overrepresentation in the Senate. Why should there be overrepresentation in two branches of government?
     
  13. nobodyspecific

    nobodyspecific Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am undecided on the EC as beneficial or not. But I think this is a poor argument in its favor.

    Broadly speaking, all points boil down to the number of counties or mass of land that went to Trump vs Clinton. But logically, this is a porous argument. Counties don't have opinions. Land doesn't vote. Neither are terribly worthwhile measures for justifying a voting system for a singular victor.

    Say you have all 3000 odd counties each populated by 1 person. Then the last county is populated by the remaining 320 some million people. Taken to absolute extremes, the same argument logically follows:

    1. There are 3k counties, all but one voted for Trump.
    2. There are 62 counties in NY State, Trump won all but one.
    3. Clinton won the popular vote by over 99.9%.
    4. One county resulted in 100% of the Clinton votes.
    5. This one county represents less than 00.1% of the total land area of the country.
    6. When you have a county that covers such a small land mass, it would be ludicrous to suggest that the voters in that tiny land mass get to determine the winner of the election on their own.

    I feel there are good arguments in favor of the EC, but this is not one of them.
     
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  14. 61falcon

    61falcon Well-Known Member

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    Right now we allow 538 people who are completely unknown to 99.9999999i9% of the nations voters to elect our president and vice president.Standing in long lines waiting to vote in our presidential election is an exercise in futility and a waste of taxpayer money.
     
  15. One Mind

    One Mind Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The wise people like the founders dont want a mobocracy.

    People jammed together are like over crowded rats . They aint got good sense.
     
  16. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    We are a Federal Republic, hope I was able to clarify this.
     
  17. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    And you can prove that? Start with the number of counties and go from there.
     
  18. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I'm interested in you elaborating on this...
     
  19. nobodyspecific

    nobodyspecific Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do not see how it requires elaboration. I am simply taking the original argument and modifying the numbers to show how the exact same argument, when tested against its logical extremes, is shown to be untenable. This is known as boundary testing. It similarly works for first past the post voting, but that is another subject.
     
  20. FatBack

    FatBack Well-Known Member

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    I have not adjusted the per capita numbers but dont you think a guy living in Kansas, deserves equal representaion to an urban dweller?
     
  21. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  22. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    Well Done!
     
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  23. ButterBalls

    ButterBalls Well-Known Member

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    If a county is empty then the vote count for that area is ZERO. Come on Rahl, it's not that difficult :no::no::no::roll:
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  24. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    1) The Senate is deeply unrepresentative of the country
    According to 2018 Census Bureau estimates, more than half of the US population lives in just nine states. That means that much of the nation is represented by only 18 senators. Less than half of the population controls about 82 percent of the Senate.

    It’s going to get worse. By 2040, according to a University of Virginia analysis of census projections, half the population will live in eight states. About 70 percent of people will live in 16 states — which means that 30 percent of the population will control 68 percent of the Senate.

    2) The next winner of the Electoral College could lose the popular vote by as much as 6 percentage points
    The best case for the Electoral College was offered by Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers. The choice of a president, Hamilton wrote, “should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station.” Such a process, Hamilton assured us, “affords a moral certainty” that “the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.”

    Hamilton’s argument is refuted by three words: “President Donald Trump.”
    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...n-electoral-college-senate-popular-vote-trump
     
  25. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    3) Partisan gerrymandering is still allowed
    As mentioned above, Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh owe their jobs to Senate malapportionment and the Electoral College — and Republicans owe their dominance of the judiciary to these two men. That dominance, in turn, has profound implications for who controls the House of Representatives.

    Gerrymandering, to be clear, is not a uniquely Republican sin. When the Supreme Court took up the question of whether partisan gerrymandering violates the Constitution earlier this year, it heard two cases. One involved a Republican gerrymander in North Carolina, the other a Democratic gerrymander in Maryland.

    4) The Constitution is virtually impossible to amend
    And that brings us to the last way that the Constitution is anti-democratic — it is almost impossible to amend it in order to remove these defects.

    The United States Constitution, according to University of Texas law professor Sanford Levinson, “is the most difficult to amend or update of any constitution currently existing in the world today.” It takes three-quarters of the states to ratify constitutional amendments — which means that Republicans will almost certainly be able to block any attempt to remove the Constitution’s anti-democratic features.
     
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