We are moving beyond the torture that GBush, Jesus, and Mohammad approved of.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by FreedomSeeker, Jun 7, 2016.

  1. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus/Bible/Christians are fine with very moral, decent, hard-working non-Christians, such as Gandhi, suffering brutal savage torture (thanks to the system their all-powerful god allows to take place) simply for thinking differently than they do. These verses show that Jesus and pals were of course immoral and barbaric in that regard:
    John 14:6, Acts 4:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:1-10, John 3:18, John 10:27-28, Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8, John 5:2, John 3:36, John 6:47, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:9, Revelation 19:20, 20:10,14-15, 21:8

    We can have a torture free world, and we deserve that. America moved beyond the torture that G. Bush (Abu Ghraib, "renditioning", etc.) approved of, now let's move beyond the torture that Jesus/Mohammad approved of. Jesus didn't understand that there is no love in torture....but you can.

    Question: what will it take for people to move beyond accepting the torture that GBush, Jesus, and Mohammad approved of?

    Me, as a Modern Secular Humanist, I'd like to think I'm too moral to buy into a system that has brutal, savage, barbaric torture as an integral part of its system. I think the rise of Modern Secular Humanism ("no torture") will be the best way to facilitate that. But what about you?
     
  2. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So of you capture a man you know planted a dirty bomb in NYC that will kill millions you wouldn't torture him to find out where it is?

    Hey 3 million just died but at least you didn't violate this mans human rights.

    It was a good day!

    Sickening
     
  3. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    I can see making exceptions to any rule, say 0.001% of the time in this case, and it's never happened. But we can at least agree that all non-Christians, (that's 70% of humanity, that's roughly 70 BILLION people who have ever lived), don't deserve torture simply for thinking differently than Jesus. Jesus' 100% torture rule is barbaric.

    1. (Hindu) Gandhi: tortured.
    2. (Atheist) Ben Franklin: tortured.
    3. (Atheist) T. Jefferson: tortured.
    ...what is wrong with this picture? Jesus' hatred of those that are different than him is what's wrong.

    PS when I watch a Justin Beiber video I do sometimes think that certain people should be tortured (I'm not alone of course), but as a general rule, Jesus/Mohammad's approval of torture is barbaric and not justified....there is a better, more loving way.
     
  4. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    You make an interesting point.
    Can we agree that while we can possibly see torturing a terrorist to save millions of lives, that say torturing your mother, if she happens to convert to a non-Christian belief system, should NOT be tortured (assuming she's a decent human being, which I assume she is) in the alleged "after-life"? She's just making an "honest mistake", and certainly doesn't deserve the same treatment as the terrorist...agreed?
     
  5. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are opening a pandora a box. If you agree torture is justified in some cases then who gets to draw that line? If it is ok to torture to save millions would it be ok to save thousands or hundreds or tens?

    Philosophically how can you say it's ok to let ten die but not 100?
     
  6. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    You make a good point.
    I think we can agree though, that torturing, for way way longer than one life time ("hell", per the Bible), 70 BILLION PEOPLE, is certainly brutal, savage, and above all unfair. So therefore Jesus is brutal, savage, and above all unfair. Right?
     
  7. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Since Saddam "only" tortured thousands and thousands of innocent people, and Jesus/God will torture billions and billions of innocent people, can we agree that Jesus/God are more barbaric than Saddam? Looking at the numbers it certainly appears that way.
     
  8. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Those that saddam tortured had no choice.

    God gives everyone a choice.

    Therefore, those he tortures is because that's what they wanted.
     
  9. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    No, they have a choice to suck up to Saddam - but they didn't like being dictated to, just like non-believers don't like being dictated as to how we think (I don't want to believe in Jesus), so they rejected the dictator Saddam. Just like we non-Christians reject the Biblical celestial dictator of the Bible. Jesus/God/Saddam/Hitler.....all brutal dictators.
     
  10. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    That's an intellectually dishonest assessment. The victims can only "want" it if there was enough proof that this would be the result in the first place. If you find yourself tortured by Hel in the afterlife, and an Asatru warned you it might happen, did you want it to happen? That's ridiculous.

    I'm hear now telling you that, according to some Asatru beliefs, you might find yourself tortured in the afterlife for worshiping the "white Christ."
    I'm hear now telling you that, according to some ultraOrthodox Jews, you might find yourself tortured in the afterlife for idolizing Jesus.

    According to your logic, you "want" those things to happen to you.
     
  11. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Dear god that's a great answer! Wow.
     
  12. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Oops, looks like you're going to have to convert, Spooky, as you don't want to be tortured for rejecting the Asatru beliefs!! I know *I* don't, so I'm converting ASAP!! But....wait.....don't the Islamic belief say that I have to only worship Allah!? I'm screwed!!
     
  13. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    You're actually probably okay as far as the Asatru are concerned. In fact, Germanic paganism has a tradition of respecting the integrity of "the godless," and some of their greatest folk heroes belonged to "the godless." These were men who chose to avoid any dealings with the gods, preferring to rely on their own devices and recognizing that dealing with gods was often the source of problems, rather than a solution. There's nothing in Asatru/Germanic pagan belief that requires worship. However, the same culture had no respect for Jesus, calling him the "white Christ," white having the same connotation in their culture as yellow does in ours -- Jesus and his followers were regarded as cowards, which is pretty much the highest level of sin that exists in Asatrur culture.
     
  14. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    If these "gods" could just get together and hash this all out - and then tell us which ones of them are real and which ones are just con jobs - that would be great. :)
     
  15. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    They are more accepting, more tolerant, than Jesus/Mohammad....that's good to see. From them, Jesus/Mohammad could learn something about how to respect people who don't suck up to them.
     
  16. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Nice in but it is very clear. Accept Christ or go to hell, it's as simple as that.

    Let's not forget that you will live forever in complete happiness and joy. So reject him if you want but you know your options. You wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for God so I have no sympathy for those that turn their back on him.
     
  17. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    And if yours were the only religion, the only promise of heaven, and the only threat of hell, then you might have a point. It isn't.

    I can't have complete happiness and joy if Christianity is true. Some of my closest friends and family members would be damned. I can't be eternally happy if they are suffering.

    A claim that can be made by any religion that threatens damnation to non-believers.

    You wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Thor's protections. If it weren't for Ptah's creation. If it weren't for Thoth. If it weren't for Zeus. If it weren't for Bacchus. If it weren't for Eros. Sorry, but your claim isn't even remotely unique.

    Then you had no sympathy in the first place.
     
  18. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    They have their faults, but most pagan religions do not condemn people for non-belief, which is an improvement. Some pagan mystery traditions reverse that trend and say that all are damned, unless they posses the secret faith -- no surprise that "orthodox" Christianity has copied that part in order to leverage it for power. Still, there are universalist Christians and pluralist Christians, who recognize individual dignity over blind faith. I like those guys okay.
     
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It would only be 'simple' if Christianity were the only faith which has ever existed. Since it's just one of many thousands, it's far from simple. Though I can see how it's considerably less taxing to think it is. Especially for those who like their boons to come easy.
     
  20. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Spooky is an atheist when it comes to Thor.
     
  21. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe all the gods are actually the same one. And if God does exist and created everything do you really think he doesn't have a plan for dealing with your loss of family and friends lol.
     
  22. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    First the zombie has to prove to us that he's actually real.
     
  23. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Well his "plan" when he screwed up and created bad people was to commit genocide, on 99.999999% of all animals even(!), in his "flood"....so this guys' plans kinda suck. I'm sure a monkey with Downs Syndrome could come up with a better plan than the plan devised by that invisible man in the sky. And his plan to forgive us for our "sins" - by torturing his own son - wow, what an idiot this joker is!
     
  24. Spooky

    Spooky Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's been proven that the flood was only local but to the writers it would have appeared the whole world was flooded. The flood in that region has been proven around Noah's time by secular scientists.
     
  25. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Christians and Muslims, for example, don't worship the same invisible super-friend, as one says god has a "son", and the other (Islam) say he doesn't. One says Jesus died on the cross and the other says no. One says there is "original sin" and the other (Islam) says there is not. So obviously they are so structurally different that they clearly don't worship the same invisible man in the sky.

    Have a nice day. And "crank" joining in on the fun always makes me as happy as the Bible is dashing babies against rocks! (Psalm 137:9: http://biblehub.com/psalms/137-9.htm ) I like being happy, I just don't have to slaughter infants to be that way.
     

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