We Need Factories for Making Products and Not for Making Jobs

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by expatpanama, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,311
    Likes Received:
    7,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Let me translate my understanding of what you said...

    "By spending money, people create demand, and that affects supply and production."

    Did I get it?
     
  2. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    153,338
    Likes Received:
    39,002
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Go try to sell your cherry-picked data to a newbie.
     
  3. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,311
    Likes Received:
    7,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    IOW you have no counter argument? Looks like you're surrendering to Iriemon.
     
  4. Deckel

    Deckel Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    17,608
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes his name is Sven and he is hung like Milo's boyfriend. :boxing:
     
  5. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    82,348
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, what I've shown is that since the Reagan "trickle down" revolution, median incomes and wages have stagnated, their share of the nation's income and wealth has fallen dramatically, while the richest have seen their income and wealth skyrocket while they've gotten more and more of the pie.

    These are facts and have nothing to do with how static or dynamic class movement it, though it has become less dynamic since the Reagan "trickle down" revolution.
     
  6. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    82,348
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Go try to sell your cherry-picked data to a newbie.[/QUOTE]

    LOL, in Bluesguy world, when the black and white facts directly contradict your position, they must be "cherry picked.":
     
  7. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,311
    Likes Received:
    7,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The right doesn't talk much about "trickle-down" anymore since the obvious failure of the theory over the last 40 years. All the "trickle-down" became "flood upward".
     
    Iriemon likes this.
  8. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Interesting word - "earned".

    Consider the case of hedge-fund manager John Paulson.

    His prominence and fortune were made in 2007 when he "earned" almost $4 billion personally and was transformed "from an obscure money manager into a financial legend"[5] by using credit default swaps to effectively bet against the U.S. subprime mortgage lending market

    Nice 'work' if you can get it; but where exactly did that 'hard-earned' money come from? From taxpayer-funded bank bailouts? From the bankruptcy of pension funds? From the losses on foreclosed real estate?

    Meantime much necessary and honest work (eg cleaning jobs) is 'rewarded' with below poverty level wages.

    Start paying above poverty level wages to everyone of working age, and I might consider taking your world view more seriously, as representing something more than mere self-interest at best, and
    greed at worst.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    Iriemon likes this.
  9. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Tired old rant? [So just let people go away and die....]

    Hey, there's enough important work, and resources requiring sustainable management, to employ everyone at above poverty level wages.

    The problem is the dysfunctional financial system, which makes fools out of politicians everywhere.

    Ofcourse robots will soon produce most physical goods, it doen't matter much whether in America or elsewhere, but sadly Trump doesn't have the vision to deal creatively with this wonderful opportunity to improve global living standards..

    His approach is to defund the UN, defund social programs in the US and overseas, while funding an ever expanding military industrial complex to cope with the ever increasing poverty, criminality and violence (including war)



    .
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  10. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    37,112
    Likes Received:
    9,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    people need goods and services.
    It is their responsibility to figure out how to get them.
    Producers need to sell goods and services. It is their responsibility to figure out how to produce them and sell them.
    It is not their responsibility to provide jobs.
     
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    5,000
    Likes Received:
    718
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You are ofcourse placing an impossibly high task on "the people".

    Government is required to manage the interaction between the buyers and sellers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  12. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    WE, THE SHEEPLE

    Yes, and the adverse of the above is also true. As was seen in the Great Recession back in 2010.

    When gross Demand drops suddenly, companies lay-off people and those laid-off consumers contract drastically their expenditures - thus reducing even further demand. The spiral downward is as contagious as it is self-protracting.

    The best way to stop the spiral was Keynesian "Stimulus Spending":
    *Obama spiked the explosion of the unemployment percentage (inherited from Dubya) at 10% upon entering office by the means of a stimulus-spending bill called ARRA of around $870B.
    *When, in 2010, the American electorate handed the HofR over to the Replicants, they refused Obama any further Stimulus Spending - providing us the stoopid excuse of the necessity of "Austerity Budgeting".
    *Which is the reason that it took another four long years (from 2010 to 2014) for the economy to start creating jobs as demonstrated in this BLS infographic of the historical US Employment-to-population Ratio.

    So what is Trump now proposing? More stimulus-spending - mostly for the DoD (and his corporate "friends" in that line of business).

    We have been living a political joke for the past ten years since 2007 - which we, the sheeple, so richly deserve given that we voted "democratically" our political leadership in LaLaLand on the Potomac ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  13. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    9,744
    Likes Received:
    2,086
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, well, that "tired old rant" has been around for centuries admittedly. It is nonetheless still cogent in one of the richest countries on earth that still has close to 43 million American men, women and children incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold. (Which is about the population of California and some other smaller state.)

    Your seeming indifference to the problem - shared by many - is NOT THE SOLUTION.

    But, until, American voters wake-up from their collective somnolence regarding the matter of Income Taxation, there is nothing more to be said. Ronald Reagan screwed the lower-classes royally as this infographic shows clearly:
    [​IMG]

    Dispute that sad truth demonstrated above. Explain away the fact that the top 0.1Percenters started taking an ever increasing share of Total Wealth (ie., post-taxation Income Revenues) after 1980 (when Reckless Ronnie was PotUS) ...
     
  14. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    37,112
    Likes Received:
    9,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You forgot," In my opinion."
     
  15. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    37,112
    Likes Received:
    9,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Debt based consumption and the cozy arrangement between the FED and the wall street banks.
    Not hard to figure out.
     
  16. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    153,338
    Likes Received:
    39,002
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Go read again, his cherry picked numbers carry no weight.
     
  17. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    153,338
    Likes Received:
    39,002
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Again your cherry picked numbers carry no weight and there is no such thing as "trickle down".

    Other than inflation why should the job of cooking french fries pay more now than it did during Reagan's term?
     
  18. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    153,338
    Likes Received:
    39,002
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes he earned the money from people paying him to manage and protect and grow their assets. His decisions affect thousands of peoples personal assets valued up into the 10's of billions on a daily, hourly basis. He is paid for the value and those decisions and his abilities. He is paid for the client he brings into the firm and their billions in assets they bring. And he is paid on his performance.

    So try again
    Other than inflation why should the job of cooking french fries pay more now than it did during Reagan's term?
     
  19. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    43
    What's the problem here, is it that the rich are richer? imho a far more important problem is the fact that the poor are suffering. The poor in the world do a lot better when then they come to the U.S. and they find themselves where there are rich getting richer. Now, some folks hate the rich soooo much that they're perfectly happy w/ condemning the poor to mass heartbreaking unspeakable painful death, just as long as we get to enjoy the perverse satisfaction of attacking the rich.

    imho that's a crock.
     
    squidward likes this.
  20. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    37,112
    Likes Received:
    9,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Debt based consumerism, cheap money and the failure of the gov and FED to let bad debt get purged, and insolvent banks get liquidated?
    Just a guess
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  21. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    37,112
    Likes Received:
    9,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    And unfortunately, attacking the rich hurts the guys with a couple hundred K the most, while those with billions upon billions laugh.
    They are the benefactors of the wealth transfer from the upper middle class, via their whores in government

    The ultra wealthy get richer by government privilege, the poor remain poor and the middle class slowly gets poor.
    Taxing the rich is such a beautiful thing, if you really are rich.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
  22. expatpanama

    expatpanama Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    710
    Likes Received:
    229
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Every time that's been tried the vast majority of the population ended up suffering unspeakable hardship. The State has no ability to manage the exchanges of wealth that free people have created. Only the people who create wealth can decide what they need and what they can pay. What does work well is the people's governments must serve the public by maintaining an orderly environment where free people can live and peruse happiness.
     
    squidward likes this.
  23. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    37,112
    Likes Received:
    9,515
    Trophy Points:
    113
    once government gets involved, wealth gets extracted and transferred to itself, along with its buddies
     
  24. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    26,311
    Likes Received:
    7,461
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, except I hesitate to call what trump is doing "stimulus spending". His cuts are austerity. His defense spending is not targeted to create jobs. He just want to be ready to launch a world war.

    All this cutting back is wrong headed. It was proven wrong in Greece and it was proven wrong in the U.S. since 2008. And you can't convince the hard right of any sensible argument against it.

    We're in for a hard 2 years until we can rip the republicans out of congress and replace them with sanity.
     
  25. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    82,348
    Likes Received:
    2,657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In Bluesguy world, all facts that contradict your 1% apologist positions are "cherry picked and carry no weight."

    Got it. Others can decide for themselves.

    Agreed. "Trickle down", or "supply side" economics, is a hoax perpetrated by RW propaganda media that if the richest got big tax cuts and business perks, the wealth created would "trickle down" to benefit the middle and poorer workers.

    No such thing. It was a lie sold to the ignorant to get them to support policies that have enabled redistribution of more and more of the nation's gross income and wealth to the rich, and away from the middle/poorer classes.

    [​IMG]

    Because BK made s***loads of money off the backs of those folks cooking french fries, which, thanks to "trickle down" policies, has go to the owners and not the workers.

    Why shouldn't hard working Americans share in the income and wealth they helped create?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017

Share This Page