We need less college and more reality

Discussion in 'Education' started by Bassman, Nov 18, 2018.

  1. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

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    This is a subject I've discussed before with several of my FB friends. My current occupation with the NFTA has me convinced more than ever that vocational/ trades careers are not being emphasized enough in the schools because in my opinion it's always "college this and college that". Has been since even before I was a senior some 32 years ago. And that is doing a disservice to our people. No wonder why the building trades are in such high demand right now-shortage of new apprentices to bring up in the ranks. NFTA is experiencing a driver shortage, as is all student, transit, and motorcoach companies/agencies. For example, even with my class and the next two classes behind me, there won't be enough drivers to cover the extra board for very long. Again, if a 19-21 year old has his/her license, that person can easily turn a 35-40 year career and not be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in college loan debt and a worthless degree. I'm not knocking college, there are fields that require a degree, but why push it as the end all to a better life?
     
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  2. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    We're not supposed to be building things. China is supposed to be building things. How can we eliminate the middle class and institute neofeudalism if we have skilled workers making money?

    You can't control people who are self sufficient and independent. And we're supposed to be controlled.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
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  3. Bridget

    Bridget Well-Known Member

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    I think the government should get out of the student loan business. Then, only the kids who really wanted to go to college and had the qualities to be successful, would get loans. The others, including those who just want to major in social activism, would be out in the real world, and working.
     
  4. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    So, you want higher education to be only for the wealthy? How's that gonna work out, long-term?
     
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  5. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Scholarships, savings from relatives, military service, working then going to school later, corporate benefits that help with education all are options for those not wealthy and we could demand endowments spend if a school is non-profit all interest earning go to reducing the costs of attending a school (Harvard for one is sitting on billions of dollars and the University of California system is as wealthy) invested even modestly it could open the school to more people by reducing tuitions for those of modest means. And why not insist State colleges be half funded by the States that would fix issues to.

    Why loans its free money and no obligations that schools keep costs under control I would agree to keep them with major changes it can only be used for public schools, they must be half state funded and the endowments used to reduce the costs of attending and there is a government stake the government must approve majors covered and there is a COLA tied to inflation. And if a student fails to get a job requiring his or her degree or related closely the school refund a third of the money spent to the government. Give the student an obligation to pick a good major, work at it but if they graduate with a degree in economics they get a job its useful for that is the colleges obligation giving them a window of say five years. But we need technical education in High School leading to entry level career tracked jobs, apprenticeships, non-profit public school district funded trade schools for adults and continuing education covered with some kind of program so adult workers can retrain or add skills annually.
     
  6. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    So, you want the government to dictate what private institutions do with their money? Do you want to apply that to all private enterprises, including private individuals? All of which would still leave college for the most part only for the wealthy. And, loans are NOT "free money." The whole point of a loan is in the obligation.
     
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  7. unkotare

    unkotare Well-Known Member

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    "Pick a good major"? Who decides what that is?
     
  8. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Employers, the governments agencies involved in labor and employment, does the degree lead to a career or career group upon completion and what talents the students have it wouldn't need to be done right away. Under my model students would be tracked K through 12th Grade and people would know what they test at and what they did well in. The college bound going right to a four year school would already have made a cut being likely in the top 20% of students. Now say you want to study Music and do get into that passing the departments tests in that I have no issue saying it can be covered same for Art or Theater but I would have weight on the school this leads to employment within five years in those fields. So they might insist on a minor in an affiliated area Business or Teaching or something which has career advising all the way. But say you opt to major in Philosophy now I majored in that paying my own way but if its a government backed loan I would have said nope you can take it if another major is taken maybe Business or Education K-12 or something useful. Gender Studies is there I suppose I would prefer it not be funded but if it is can it lead to a career in Gender Studies within five years or a job complimentary to that? Maybe with a clear plan.

    Remember my model the student is a cook the school must repay a big chunk of the money back.

    In truth States should cover 80% of college costs for State Schools that might mean closing more four year or higher schools but those few would be good and competition to get in higher. Community Colleges and the like should be expanded and High Schools put back to prepare students for work (majority) or college (minority) of each class.
     
  9. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

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    I remember many years ago the city colleges in New York City were free. Girls need a higher grade to get in!
    Today colleges are outrageously expensive and without student loans poor kids can’t even dream of it. Even kids who get scholarships can’t go. My granddaughter just got a $17,000 scholarship to a college that isn’t even one of the most expensive and she still has to pay about 20,000 but she is lucky because we set up a college fund for her. My husband had to drop out of school and never had the dream of going to college and that’s what happens when you are very poor
     
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  10. GrayMan

    GrayMan Well-Known Member

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    Schools should be required to report placement rates and average pay scales of students completing their program. Also, funding should be proportional to placement rates due to the fact that high placement rates indicate a great need industry for such people.
     
  11. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

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    There is the obvious and better alternative in the trades and vocational training. Plus with that, you don't have to worry about Communistic indoctrination from the professors.
     
  12. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Did I say don't go if all the measures I noted were taken and State schools focused on solid educations leading to a career with solid enough tracking all the way many could go to a university but we may need new e-learning options and ways to cut costs using technology and better career planning for those not going to college. We are going to need many trades workers to replace retiring people this means learning the skills of building construction and other work, machinists, welders and such jobs which cannot be outsources and automation cannot replace easily anytime soon since its complicated work and sometimes specialized. Underwater welders can make a very good living in the six figures since the skill set is high you need to be an expert scuba diver and a expert welder and fit to do that work with is demanding and dangerous but can make a lot of money and always be working since such workers are a small and elite pool and there aren't enough o them. If this person can also do demolitions and other work with certifications you can demand a lot more money. But it demands commitment started young and hard work for perhaps fifteen years to get there the same time a doctor takes to train but not in any standard college.

    But a mason, plumber, carpenter and others are also jobs we need to start filling now and the ones that do will be ahead of others who might try to get in later especially people of color and women who are due to society given preference for union training.

    But the schools are expensive to me due to unlimited government money they never did the aid with a COLA on an amount and let schools determine this not the government, so they exploited it and the state schools tried to compete with private ones for frills not sinking money into giving the best educations in fact it seems to me the degrees are being dumbed down to shove more warm bodies into schools, who have government backed loans, and not leaving with strong career preparations in too many cases. AOC is a good example she went to a very good school and left to be a bartender and due to a fluke of districting got into Congress and is an economic idiot and loon. Kudos doing this but now she has to hold the seat and they are looking at ways to get rid of her embarrassing self in her own party. If she failed she would still be a bartender seems to me she needed career tracking as early as possible.
     
  13. ralfy

    ralfy Active Member

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    On a global scale, though, we need more college graduates. One article reports that only around 7 pct of people worldwide have degrees, and more are needed to maintain industrial civilization.
     
  14. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Driving jobs don't pay very well. Bus drivers only get about $16 per hour on average, taxi drivers only get $17, and truck drivers make about $23 per per on average. And these jobs are really boring. And self-driving cars are in the works and these jobs might disappear in 15 years. Software developers on average earn $41 per hour, do that instead.
     
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  15. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I agree but will truck drivers go away if one is hauling toxic chemicals and gasoline I wouldn't trust the computer what if terrorists do hack it you need a fail safe a human who can shut the AI off and take over. Plus would this handle urban traffic and needs for highways sure but a highway to the center of say Tampa, Florida a driver might be needed. As for income not everyone is cut out for college your making it sound like you go, get some degree and its easy money with more income than a good electrician but many jobs aren't any better for college majors Social Workers and Teachers make the same as many trades but the former means debt to repay a trade might have tool costs of course that are high. But its an investment to and could be done bit by bit as one advances into ones work. It also helps if one cracks down and keeps out cheap non-union labor and immigrants who might do the work off the books that though is a government issue.

    Now lets consider a group here those with lower IQ's college is great but does to do well a certain mental aptitude as do trades what if all one can do is assist in preparing food in a large food output setting a factory type of setting, or pack goods or drive these aren't intellectually demanding jobs and the jobs you seem to look down on might be the only thing a large portion of the population can do. What about them? Software engineers I assumed need a good IQ I did some checking Peterson referenced in a video and that career if I recall demands an IQ of 120 or more depending on the level of work fairly high on the bell curve of IQ. (15% of the population?) That's the range of a police detective in comparison. The cop on the street needs an IQ of 101 about in comparison with proper training and meet other requirements of course.

    So I try to face reality a large portion of the students will enter the workforce out of High School, are not talented enough for college earning the kind of degree you posted and working at a McDonalds and do well is now an average IQ job its not simple work flipping burgers, making milkshakes and automation might impact these to at least some degree it is already for ordering food. So their best shot is ample skills training as low cost as possible so the income isn't held down by debt and try to do so as efficiently as possible. Skills matter more for common workers employers need good soft skills and good hard skills the frills of a broad education to make a scholarly citizen is noble but most people aren't really suited to that and some are.

    Even in university how many medical track students need the liberal arts ideal I could see cutting the fluff and having a medical doctor trained for further residency in five years get in the basic core pre-medical classes, a course or two in the history of medicine and medical ethics then right into medicine thinking outside the box. No majors, minors, electives, courses in art history or social science get in work on your essential knowledge and skill set and leave a doctor. For researchers there a four year degree and such makes a lot more sense but that could be another track one for practical doctors who tend patients and one for advanced training in other areas.
     
  16. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

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    The four years of college pre-medical school is for weeding people out. It's not really so much for practical learning. The goal is not to produce more doctors, but to keep the supply down, so demand stays high.

    The other thing is that for many of us, the degree we got in college is not the field we are now working in. The field I work in didn't exist when I was in college. I don't anticipate less people having this sort of experience in the future. Having a wide based liberal arts and sciences education gave me the skillset in order to easily gain other skillsets.
     
  17. Bassman

    Bassman Banned

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    Geeky stuff like that bores the hell out of me. And where do you get your figures from, out of a cereal box? Transit operators make on average of $25-31/hr top rate and the benefits are fantastic. Oh, and you still need HUMAN control over these self driving albatrosses.
     
  18. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    I get my data from BLS. You can google wage data for these jobs groups and easily verify my numbers in seconds. Transit operators actually make more like $21 per hour and only about 175,000 of 4.4 million driving jobs are transit operators. If machines achieve a lower accident and fatality rate then there will no good reason not to replace drivers will machines and America's top tech companies are pouring billions to make this a reality and we are already seeing the first generation of self-driving cars. Why pay a transit operator $35 per hour in pay/benefits when you can have a machine do it for free? We could slash bush ticket prices to what is needed to pay for vehicle repair, maintenance, and gas and actually make our transit systems highly profitable and cheap. Even if machines only wipe out half of these 4.4 million jobs, we will have 4.4 million people fighting for 2.2 million jobs which will push down wages big time.
    https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes533021.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  19. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Self-driving cars may not eliminate all driving jobs but it will eliminate most. It will make it crazy cheap for a company to haul products and people and competitors who don't move to self-driving cars wouldn't be able to compete. We need to change our higher education to being more about training for a job rather than becoming an academic and many people aren't well educated because our higher education system is so bad. Some people just don't have enough intelligence to get a decent jobs in the new automation era, and hopefully natural selection weeds out their genes eventually, just speaking truth.
     
  20. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Why higher education High School is paid for largely by public taxes and virtually free for parents focus there get students trained for industry there, we used to before the push for college, students would go to technical high schools get some general education but mostly get employment based courses in areas of work we can and should do that again. I would say add two years more to High School for vocational students and they should leave with certifications in at least three related but different kinds of work and be trainable. The academic students go on to college but they get into dedicated schools where they are forced to do the most difficult work they can handle. Well both tracks need to be demanding but in different ways.

    And for low intelligence people and the lazy cut your losses and get rid of them as early as possible stop mandating they go to school once they reach 16 give them the boot and put troublemakers in special schools and boot them to if you need to. Every dollar needs to go to those who will benefit society.

    And we need some kind of lifelong learning built into the system so workers who care can keep their skills developing or re-train for new work.

    I'm not opposed to college or other options but students need to take out debt and why should they to learn work skills when we have free education already covered and that to me is enough of an obligation with some consideration for lifelong learning maybe some kind of buy in employers put in something, workers put in something and the government matches it up to a certain amount. This only for education tuition, books and supplies or tools of a trade. This a tax deduction for the private parties.
     
  21. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    Girls needed higher grades? This is the first I've ever heard of that. In fact, I recall that it was said back in the 1960s that Hunter College (which had the highest academic standards of all CUNY schools) favored female applicants and only became coed in 1964. Do you have any source to show that girls needed higher grades for entry into other schools?

    By the way, back then there were far more area all girls schools such as Marymount, New Rochelle, Vassar, etc. Most were private and some such as Barnard and Russell Sage remain segregated by gender.


    Like your husband, I also had to drop out and went to school at night after working a job or two during the day. After all that effort, I never found any use for my worthless degrees.
     
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  22. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Increased education correlates with better choices and a more rewarding and more functional society.

    A recent exhaustive Stanford University study revealed students at an international school in Finland significantly outperformed U.S. students on tasks which measure digital literacy in social media and online news. The researchers suggest this may be due to the Finnish and International Baccalaureate curricula's different way of facilitating students' critical thinking skills compared to the U.S. system and curriculum. The results of this study were published in the Journal of Research in International Education in April.

    Finnish school students outperform U.S. students in recognizing 'fake news' - https://phys.org/news/2019-05-finnish-school-students-outperform-fake.html
     
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  23. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    There is SOMETHING missing in a lot of the US curricula

    I don’t know whether it is “red brain versus blue brain” or the fact that many republicans are old whit men or a basic problem with the curriculum but few right wingers can tell a research article from a kindergarten drawing
     
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  24. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind that the economy is the foundation of a society and everything else, -politics, law, culture, education, -everything springs from that economic base and operates in service to it. In the case of education, we've all experienced or known that schools structure their curricula to prepare students to take their place in the economy. Education prepares people for a work life according to their interests. But in recent years education has dropped studies like the arts, phys. ed., history, cut back on English and English Comp., and promoted the idea that education isn't needed so much any longer. Why? ... Because the top corporations don't need educated workers so much. High-cost work is farmed out to India, China, and other low-cost-labor countries. Secondary education costs far more because corporations that don't need so many highly educated employees have cut way back on grants and funding for universities. But for the fewer highly-educated professionals they need, they prefer to go to the wealthy class to offer them jobs, so education has become more and more a thing for the rich who can afford it.

    Raising a population of poorly educated workers is a sure way to poverty, martial law, and dictatorship lacking in democracy as society degenerates into Third World status.

    GAWD I'm depressing! But it's all happening.
     
  25. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's a reason there aren't more graduates in other countries.
    Graduates in China are already complaining that they can't find enough what are considered "college jobs".
    If you were a family in a developing country would you make the huge investment and risk of sending your child off to college if there was a high chance it would not pay off? I mean your child might only have a 60, 40, or even 30 percent chance of being able to get a job that would justify what they went through.
    It's no wonder wanting to send a child to college in these countries is not an automatic given.

    Well one thing for certain, maybe if we had fewer stupid laws and excessive regulations we wouldn't need as many lawyers. It seems it's the rich countries that keep endlessly passing more laws thinking with each additional law they are doing good. Meanwhile a substantial portion of the economy is drained on expensive courts and lawyers, but I guess the wealthy society can afford that drain. Hey, whatever makes us feel good.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019

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