Welfare State and Value of Humans.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by CCitizen, Nov 18, 2017.

  1. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I am among 44 million American citizens who have disability. About 10 million American citizens have Severe Disability.
     
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  2. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    Billionaires spend billions for luxury items they do not need. These billions could have been used to save millions of lives in poor Nations.

    Given that many billionaires, hectomillionaires, and decamillionaires lack ethics, taxes could help them make right decisions.
     
  3. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    Try to be disabled in a third world country the US is good to us but you must ask for help and not be too proud to take it this includes accessing family and charities. I'm disabled and on SSI and other benefits and am doing okay.
     
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  4. CCitizen

    CCitizen Well-Known Member

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    I hope everything works out for you! My parents help me greatly.

    Millions of others end up homeless or drug addicts.
     
  5. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    :angel:
     
  6. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think that is false. I am quite certain that U.S. citizens receiving social services are allowed to have possessions.

    Isn't that only for unemployment benefits? And even so, being a union member, all I have to do is keep my name on the union "out of work" list - I don't actually have to seek employment or accept employment and I can still get the benefit - because the union is "seeking employment" for me. I am being completely serious. I'm telling you this so you will realize that there are thousands of ways to cheat the intent of the system. And that is my biggest complaint about the welfare system in the U.S. *Cheaters suck*
    NOTE: I have never been on unemployment because I have been employed my entire adult life.

    The OP is unhappy that welfare is limited and that everyone cannot get some. I simply asked him if he would be okay with the taxpayers supporting me while I was completely unproductive. Perhaps the OP needs to be more clear about what he thinks is the desired level of services, because obviously you read his post differently than I did.

    Anyway, the system really sucks. For example, some people get paid for letting their grandma live with them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  7. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What does the US have to do with it? I am talking about Scandinavia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  8. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are worse places than America in this universe.

    I'm not so sure that fully represents our aspirations, though.
     
  9. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    Not to sound like an ass. But that does not answer my question.

    And now I'm probably going to sound like an even bigger ass.

    I have a titanium cage and cadaver bone holding my back together as well as a fake knee. I work an average of 70 hours a week at my day job. But not all disabilities are equal. I know that there are some people that simply can not work a typical job. But even still their misfortune does not give them moral grounds to call for the government to take money from one person under the threat of force.

    As dispassionate as the above makes me sound I do believe that we should help out the less fortunate. I do not believe it is up to the government to do it with violence though. Everything the government does for those in poverty charity can do more effeciently.
     
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  10. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    No one has a right to what someone else has earned unless the person who eared it is willing to give it up. Taking something without consent is immoral.
     
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  11. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Charity is great. My own charity level is above the level that would put a few people above the poverty line if they had no other income (if it were spread that way). So don't give me grief about disdaining charity.

    However, I've never seen even a GHOST of evidence that we could depend on charity alone.

    It doesn't provide enough to keep those in need alive. And, it doesn't have any way of spreading the support to those who need it.

    Even when there have been significant tax breaks in the past, charitable giving for those in need (as opposed for the arts, etc.) did not increase appreciably, even when need DID increase significantly (such as during the Bush recession).
     
  12. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I gave anyone grief about charity. But anyway. If we saw the welfare state completely vanish as well as government shrinking to where it was intended to be at the start you would see charity boom.

    We donate heavily as well. Also remember that there are many charitable donations that are never claimed on taxes. Take ABATE for example. In one riding season the ABATE chapter here raised 240k for the hospice house, as well as paid off all a family's debt from treatment for their daughter's cancer treatment, and numerous smaller things just from poker runs. All in all they raised more than a million dollars in one riding season over the course of 5 runs. My club raised enough funds to completely finance the rebuild of a family's home that burnt down, for some reason they didn't have homeowners insurance.
     
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  13. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There is now and never has been a civilization without taxation.

    The very idea is ridiculous.

    Classifying taxation as theft is a promotion of anarchy - not something civilization can tolerate.
     
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  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Your first paragraph is total nonsense.

    As I pointed out, taxes have been cut in the past at various points in time (Reagan, 2008, etc.), and it doesn't translate to charitable giving to humanitarian causes. The last recession shows that significant increase in need also was not covered by charitable giving increases.

    And, your second paragraph is testimony to good and highly laudable intend for sure, but it does NOT represent any method of ensuring that charitable donations are spread to those in need, covering that need on a sustained basis.

    I'd point out that disaster donations are usually pretty good for a few months, and they totally dry up - LONG before the need abates.
     
  15. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that you take a deeper look at my posts. I never said without any taxes. Just much less than there currently are. And without them being straight up theft.

    Take how it is now. You pay much more in taxes than you actually see. In addition to income tax you have sales tax. Environmental taxes, labor taxes. Ect.

    I have about 80k worth of tools that I use at work. Yes I was able to deduct them on my income taxes. But there are taxes applied to them that most people never think about.

    The ore that was used to make them was taxed when it came out of the ground as was the labor to remove them. They were taxed again when it was transported to the refinery. Taxed when that ore was turned into alloy. Taxed again when it was transported again and taxed when that allow was turned into tools and transported and sold. The tools that I need to make a living were taxed dozens of times before I ever bought them. And as we all know, the cost of production is passed to the consumer.

    Some studies estimate that 75% of the average Americans paycheck goes to taxes in one form or another.
     
  16. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    I am not advocating for anarchy. There are forms of taxation which are not theft. Forms of taxation which are entirely consensual are not theft. But the current types are not consensual.

    Also. You're wrong about the Regan era tax cuts. Instead of looking at straight tax rates you need to look at average marginal tax rates.

    It's kinda like the argument progressives make about the tax rates in the 50s. But the average marginal tax rates were lower in the 50s than after the Regan tax cuts.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  17. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, that is 7 minutes and 23 seconds I will never get back.
     
  18. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Clear cut fact and logic. Him talking about taxes being "theft" and no one "having any right", etc. is utter nonsense. Civilization and Democracy is based upon a tax system
     
  19. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Keep your finger on the page and you'll be less likely to get lost as the discussion develops.
    It has already been established (right in the OP) that the American system does not work very well and that a Scandinavian system is superior. The "nay-sayers" are criticizing the Scandinavian system using disinformation and dreaming up absurd situations where-by incentive is absent because yada-yada-yada "you don't have to do any work" and still live like a King. I am setting the record straight that it isn't how they think it is.
     
  20. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

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    I'm not so sure, if you look at the history of business and disabled persons and charity it was pretty dismal until governments intervene however there is a difference between helping and making someone unwilling to work at all. Let me explain in European nations we are talking about the disabled have ample government protections and are educated as far as they can and are encouraged to work its good for ones morale character, ones well being and socially gets the person out there. Then if the work isn't enough they add government benefits over that. And all the major nations offer a government health care system so that isn't an issue.

    Say you have a disabled citizen who is mentally limited in a wheelchair and he can only get work for 16 hours a week two 8 hour shifts on weekends say doing some kind of work say forming bread to bake in a large bakery. They would get some added benefits over that to survive this is true in Britain and Scandinavian nations and Germany and France I'm pretty sure. The unemployment rate went up for the disabled sadly when they didn't require companies to hire the disabled or pay big fines which was law for several decades in Britain. So why can't we offer more flexibility here.

    I would add no one here seems to deny some people need help, its how its delivered and by whom I support the government doing it first and then charity and family and others want the government not to be involved at all and hope the other two arms pick up the slack.
     
  21. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    You have shown nothing and continually refuse to actually discuss issues with your system. I would suggest that you give Debunking Utopia a read.
     
  22. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What is wrong with you?
     
  23. C-D-P

    C-D-P Well-Known Member

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    I'd ask the same of you.
    You can't simply say "our method is better" then claim victory while you continue to refuse to discuss,,,
     
  24. Thingamabob

    Thingamabob Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What? You are angry over the fact that the US system is inferior - as stated in the OP - and you see my explanation of the way the Scandinavian system really works, rather than misinformed people who have no experience (personal or academic) as "claiming" some sort of "victory"? You think this is an ego competition?The bottom line: You are angry because I agree with the premise of this thread and that I can debunk most (if not all) of the fundamental criticism (so far) from those who are simply repeating silly rumours. Now that I understand what your gripe is, I now realize how laughable it is that you said I "have shown nothing and continually refuse to actually discuss".

    The point you are having such difficulties with is whether or not social benefits allow recipients to retain their valuable possessions. I am speaking for the Scandinavian system and I say "no"! You are not allowed to do that. You claim in the US you can retain your possession ...... so you told me straight out that what I said is incorrect. Where's the part where I "refuse to actually discuss"? If you are allowed to keep all of your possessions in the US then you have strengthened the original OP's contention that the US system is, in fact, inferior plus you further confirm it by making claims that prove the point of those who feel government provisions for all of its citizens is "bad" as in "quitting your job and going fishing all day long and have everything paid for by the state." You see, the US system is inferior - You have proved me and the OP correct. It is you who have proved it.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The point is that income tax on the wealthy was reduced during the Reagan administration, and it didn't cause a spike in charitable giving to the needy.

    The nominal tax rate is really irrelevant, as personal donations aren't dependent on the nominal rate. If anything, they are tied to after tax income.
     

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