Welfare State and Value of Humans.

Specific taxes (such as tax on fuel) sometimes make more sense than income tax if it is used to mitigate the externalities of the action being taxed.

 

Because they are deemed less than human in american society. And for the record, Washington was a slaver, so there's that.

 

First, thank you for clearing all that up and I appreciate your patience and effort. I, and I think others, have been viewing this as more of a "philosophy of welfare in general" discussion versus a "welfare in Scandinavia" discussion.

The OP made an anecdotal stab at the American system. By no means was it established as fact that the Scandinavian system is better than the American system.

The OP claimed that "In Scandinavia, all humans are provided with food, shelter, and medical care." The implication is that the Scandinavian government provides these things for ALL citizens, even those who can provide for themselves. The Op used that as his basis for saying the American system is bad - the OP asserted that everyone in Scandinavia gets welfare, but it is really hard to get it in the U.S. and that is obviously false. So the OP used a false premise to make the claim.

Based on your commentary, the OP is obviously misguided, because, according to your claims about Scandinavian welfare, it is WAY WAY more difficult to get government assistance in Scandinavia than in the United States.

I will admit that if it is more difficult to be on welfare in Scandinavia than in the United States, that does indeed make the Scandinavian system better. The more stringent requirements in Scandinavia would mean fewer people living on the dole per capita. Apparently the system cannot be cheated as easily as it is in the U.S. That is a good thing.

There is an entire subculture of living good off government benefits in the U.S. There are too many ways to scam the system. How easy is it to scam the system in Scandinavia? Is it widespread?

If a person in Scandinavia refuses to meet the government requirements for collecting welfare, will he be provided with food, shelter, and medical care anyway?

 

Now wait a minute. Is it easier to get welfare in Scandinavia than it is in the United States? Apparently it isn't. Everyone should go back and read what ThingamaBob has been saying. He is saying that it is quite difficult to meet the government requirements to get welfare in Scandinavia. And it sounds way harder than in the United States.

Seems this entire thread is built on a false premise.

 

The OP (not his fault, I am sure) should have said all of those things are "rightly available". To "provide" is a funny word that can be thought of to mean two different things. Maybe even a better term would be "accessible". Better still, “ food, shelter, and medical care are ‘GUARANTEED’ to all citizens.”

No, it is not “difficult TO GET government assistance in Scandinavia”. It is not difficult to get but it does require that you truly are “in need”. If you own an automobile, for only one example, you will have to sell it. Whatever money you get for it will be registered as your “money in hand” and you will (therefore) not be allowed social benefits until which time that money can no longer provide your needs, as is decided by a chart that applies to your own specific situation: married, children, etc. So although it is not difficult TO GET those benefits, it may be difficult TO ENDURE. Everyone “in need” has a right to it.

I agree completely. The only thing is “the dole” is not the same as “social benefits”. Social benefits are allotted to those who have “no income” and are at risk of becoming destitute. The dole (if I really do understand correctly) is unemployment benefits paid to union members. This is considered “an income”.

I know that it happens but I don’t think people get away with it for very long. You can go to prison for it. Anyone who is unemployed is required to register with the unemployment services that insist on you to actively seek employment. You have to prove it too. Dodging those requirements can be more difficult than actual work.

One problem is with immigrants. They have new ways to cheat the system. They might be living AND WORKING in Yugoslavia or Bulgaria but their cousin is in Sweden impersonating the other one and collecting benefits. They do get caught but it might be years before someone blows the whistle and an investigation roots them out. There are many reasons why Swedish people cannot pull of that scam. Our birth to grave registration system is thorough.

Refusing to meet government requirements is a criminal offence. I guess the answer to your question is “YES”. Behind bars …… food, shelter, and medical care is absolutely guaranteed.

 

I was trying to differentiate "unemployment benefits" from "welfare".

 

But those things are not guaranteed in Scandinavia. You told me that if I (assuming I was a Scandinavian citizen) quit my job and did nothing but go fishing, that I would not qualify for government assistance in Scandinavia. Therefore, there is no guarantee of welfare assistance. You can only get welfare if you comply with a very strict set of rules.

WOW! That is amazing and almost hard to believe! That would never fly here in the states. I mean NEVER! That would be deemed "cold-hearted, oppressive, lacking compassion, psychotic, over-bearing, racist, mean-spirited, and down right evil. Having the government deprive a poor person of their vehicle would never ever happen in the United States.

At this point, the OP needs to chime in and tell us again how wonderful the Scandinavian system is compared to the American System. I really don't understand what the OP is complaining about.

RE: Welfare in Scandinavia:

It is my contention that the same can be said of welfare in America. And it sounds like it is actually easier to get it in the States than in Scandinavia!

Perhaps I was using the term "dole" incorrectly. I was using it to mean living off welfare benefits in general. I will refrain from using that term in this thread.

RE: Cheating on welfare benefits:

I think it works that way in the U.S. also. I do know that it is relatively easy to cheat the system.

So let me reword my last question in the previous post:

If a person is homeless but owns a broken down old car, and refuses to apply for welfare benefits, and refuses to sell his car, and decides to get food from restaurant dumpsters, and is quite happy with his life of leisure, would the Scandinavian government force him to receive food, shelter, and medical care?

Instead of saying "food, shelter, and medical care are GUARANTEED to every citizen in Scandinavia," perhaps it would be better to say "food, shelter, and medical care will be provided to only those citizens who meet very strict requirements."

Any issues with that?

 

We are definitely into the nitty-gritty of this subject now. It’s a good thing that I am retired because this is turning into a full-time job. Ha-ha!

A car is NOT a necessity in Scandinavia. Public transport goes everywhere. In fact, if the bus doesn’t go to some remote place, you have the right to use your “ticket” for a taxi to get you to your destination from the nearest bus stop, at no extra charge. In the event that you’ve sold your car (because of the need to qualify for welfare) but still need to be mobile in order to seek employment, the welfare services will issue you with a bus/train pass free of charge. It is part of the standard, welfare benefits. Not having a car does not mean that you are immobile. If you have a job interview far from home, welfare will pay for a plane ticket to get you there and back.

I understand, but welfare in Scandinavia will take care of all of your needs. You have no excuse to turn to crime in order to survive in Scandinavia, unless you are an alcoholic or a drug abuser. I am led to believe that even those receiving welfare in the US cannot make ends meet. Have I misunderstood it maybe?

No, the government wouldn’t force you. But there are problems with your analogy, mainly with the “broken down old car”. We don’t allow such cars on the streets and I’d sure like to know how this hypothetical friend of yours is going to pay the enormous prices and taxes just to keep any car going, if he has no income. I don’t think it can be done. But yes, theoretically you are absolutely right.

Only one “issue”. A guarantee is a guarantee. As with all guarantees there are stipulations to be met and in order for them to be honoured one must APPLY. The guarantee for your car (for example) may not apply if you’ve been tinkering under the hood and broken the rules stated in the written guarantee. Correct? In Scandinavia you may have broken your car (so that it isn’t even worth scrap-metal price) but you’ll still get your benefits once the car has left your possession. It is the price you actually receive for it, not the book price for what it “ought” to be worth. In other words, you can screw up your life by your own hand and still be eligible for welfare.

Those “very strict rules” as you call them, mean that you must be IN NEED. You can’t qualify if you are only faking it. If you own a car it is a valuable commodity so if you claim to be "in need" you are faking it. But it is not difficult to receive welfare in Scandinavia. The only qualification is that you are IN NEED and the only event necessary to put it into motion is that you must apply.

If you want sleep under a bridge in the country and commute (in your car) to the city to pan-handle, rather than abide by the rules of welfare, then it’s up to you. The Scandinavian system won’t force you …… unless you are mentally ill and a danger to yourself.

 

And I hear they have universal healthcare, but I have more to go on than one anonymous chat board poster's posts.

 

Sad but true -- USA does not care for people in need.

 

We do have that right. It's called taxation. Sorry.

 

You are a member of a group. The survival of the group is the primary concern.

 

So you don't want to pay child support or alimony because you consider your kids and ex-spouse to be slackers.

 

I had to pay for my street but other people can use it whenever they want to.

 

OK, so sell half of your stuff and give the money to the poor.

 

When the group is important, the individual suffers. When the individual is important, the group suffers. There is no system that I know, which takes care of both needs. The Scandi system works, but there isn't much reported about individuals. We just don't know the details about those who fall through the cracks in the system.

When individual humans are not considered important, state sponsored murder becomes more likely.
The wealthy corporations become the wealthy government pawns and the government heads of state. It's a shell game.
I do believe a model with a mix is best. What always makes me suspicious is the number of Scandis in the U.S. making a great living and then going home with their wealth to spend it there, instead of pumping it back into the great economy which allowed them to become wealthy. It's just too ironic.

 

I already donate quite a bit in both money and time.

Instead of you wondering if I am volunteering enough the better question is if you are volunteering enough.

 

I don’t think that any system is perfect. I am thinking about those who are at the bottom end of society. I don’t give a fart about the wealthy who are dissatisfied that they only have a few gazillion dollars and want more. No, I am thinking about those on the bottom end who must survive ….. with a few of the essential creature comforts on the side. If EVERYTHING goes wrong in Scandinavia, you’ll land on the net: Welfare. That puts us back to the beginning of the thread and how Scandinavians cope with our welfare system as opposed the American one.

I see the lack of education & medical accessibility, poverty, destitution, hysteria, eagerness to go to war amongst the population, and murder on an unbelievable scale in the US. These things are all interconnected. Given all of that, I think we are doing rather well in Scandinavia. So even the dregs of the dregs (on welfare here in Scandinavia) are pretty much isolated from all of that madness found in the US.

 

A rare thing indeed on the forums, but well received.

What are laws based upon if not morality?

One man's subjective opinion.

 

The power structure works such as to always keep a substantial portion of the population in need, by design.

Revisit the Powell Memorandum of 1971 and the April 9th, 1944 New York Times piece by Henry Wallace.

 

Theres a big difference between taxing luxury goods to pay for infrastructure and defence, and taxing income to redistribute it to the poor.

Taxation =\= entitlements

 

Only if Im a collectivist... which Im not.

 

Laws could be based on social function. Example- if there was no penalty for murder, it would become commonplace. We would be far too preocuppied with security to work, trade or socialize, the economy would tank and culture would stagnate.
Murder is wrong because its immoral, but its illegal only because its destabilizing. Theft and assault as well.

 

From where does it obtain that right?

 

Welfare assistance in the United States in 2011 was 2.3 trillion dollars according to the table: "79 Means Tested Programs in U.S. (2011)" at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_States

Don't know how each of you view wikipedia as a source, but I am sure that the table is accurate. Just take a look at the staggering number of assistance programs there are and the amount that is spent on each. To say that America doesn't care about the those in need is astronomically absurd.

The only explanation for the controversy is that greed exists at every level of the economic spectrum. And maybe a bit of envy at the bottom.