Well, Social Security has warned us

Discussion in 'Social Security' started by Robert, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I thought this was a replacement plan, not a delay plan.

    Remember that the 401k contribution limit is $18K. There are other tax deferred investment plans that don't require employer participation.

    I really doubt it will change much to have one more way to make tax deferred savings plan contributions.

    Plus, your way has the added cost of delaying SS payouts!

    Also, I'd point out that SS payouts can start well before retirement age, as there are features such as support for disability, for education of minor dependents, etc. And, the SS payout start date isn't just one date - it's a range of dates from which the principle may choose - each with different payout amounts.
     
  2. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    This isn't something that can be done in a year. It's incredibly complex, and will probably take 3 or 4 major pieces of legislation over my lifetime.
     
  3. Fenton Lum

    Fenton Lum Banned

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    Pffffffffffffffft, sure, agreed to an extent; endless war is just business in america and that is what we invest in to the detriment of society at large, which is a huge part of the reason we are trailing the rest of the advanced post-industrial world in access to healthcare, access to education, and economic disparity. Not to worry, we can turn the military on the people when they resist. It is also why we use tax payer funding to turn sporting events into North Koreaish homages to the power of the corporate state.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
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  4. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes - I fully agree trying to get rid of SS involves massive difficulty and/or expense.

    But, what I pointed to in your direction were fundamental problems that time and money wouldn't resolve.
     
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    How can an ILLEGAL alien access social security? Than cannot do so in my country. They have no access to benefits of any kind.
     
  6. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    There are analyses in the US that suggest that undocumented workers in America are a significant support for our Social Security system.

    Social Security is withheld by employers, and employers are not interested in flouting our Internal Revenue Service.

    So, all workers end up contributing and only legal contributors can safely and successfully apply for payouts.

    BUT, the right wing here isn't interested in rational analysis getting in the way of emotion.
     
  7. Iriemon

    Iriemon Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Of course they would. There's no constitutional issue with capping benefits based on income.

    Of course. But we have private accounts. It's not the panacea you imply.
     
  8. Fenton Lum

    Fenton Lum Banned

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    This has been widely known in corporate PR and propaganda circles for a long time, the masses will respond much more to your liking if you manipulate them emotionally rather than appealing to reason, knowledge and coherence. It is how we got into WWI and then the tactic took off. It is now used to "justify" endless global military occupation which requires economic cannibalization of society at home to maintain so that Wall Street and the donor/"job creator" class can access the resources of other nations for plunder. Then Clinton deregulated the FCC allowing concentrated corporate wealth and power to buy up the american media machinery.

    To tell the truth as you have here would not get the corporate state where it wants to go - to get SS funding into the private sector for plunder. Ah, but if we tell the average TV headed american that them furners/darkies are gittin' yer stuff? Tiki torches.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  9. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    You must be quite the empathetic person. My motivation in life is to be better than others, which is what drives most people considering the rampant, unquestionable success of free market capitalism.

    To think that the private sector or non defense related programs could achieve the unparalleled level of success DARPA has routinely delivered is in my opinion unfathomable. What private venture would sacrifice dozens of lives and billions of dollars in the quest to literally defy the current knowledge on physics and aviation?

    30 years ago VTOL tilt rotor aircraft were nothing but a pipe dream, but today it's a fully functional aircraft with thousands of combat missions under it's belt.

    You'll also tend to notice that think tanks habitually point to the fact that amnesty/a path to citizenship would have a significant, positive, economic impact. That's because those illegal immigrants are significantly underpaid and exploited.

    FICA is not a tax, but an insurance premium. To define it as a tax has many long term negative consequences you probably aren't thinking about.

    And I will be the first to admit that voluntary systems to address long term problems are wholly ineffective in a system that lacks a fundamental level of individual responsibility. Since Social Security is compulsory, and had it not been set up as a ponzi scheme, would lend uncalculable benefits to economic growth and addressing social issues.

    The SS Trust Fund would have $15-20 trillion in it had it been prudently invested, and could fund not just all retirement benefits, but down payments on first time home purchases and higher education to heirs upon their parents/grandparents passing.

    Instead you're here demanding that we literally steal $100 billion a year from the productive by levying a flat 12% tax on all income(according to your link), which would barely cover the shortfall, let alone push it back in the black.

    My father bought a hundred shares each of Intel and Public Storage, paying $25 and $11 respectively. After multiple splits and decades of reinvested dividends, thousands of dollars became millions of dollars which will support my elderly mother and disabled brother for the rest of their lives, leaving plenty for posterity and charitable gifts. Social Security would pay out what, $700 a month?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  10. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, undocumented immigrants are a vastly underutilized resource.

    One of America's ideals is that of working to pay ones own way. It's time we allowed those who have been here for many years and have kept their nose clean to be allowed to pay their own way legally.
     
  11. Fenton Lum

    Fenton Lum Banned

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    I rather think we have plenty to solve our manufactured problems, but we prefer global occupation and empire urged by our global corporatists instead.
     
  12. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    Having spent my entire adult life working in landscaping, irrigation, agriculture, manufacturing and construction, all industries that employ the lion's share of illegal immigrants, I would be inclined to agree. Unfortunately Democrats have no interest in actually solving the problem.

    Their donors want a steady stream of poor, uneducated, and destitute immigrants to skirt employment law, and the politicians they own dance for their masters. I mean legal residents working on farms? That might lead to them expecting labor rights.
     
  13. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    Manufactured problems?

    The majority of the US population doesn't have the slightest grasp on politics, finance, or budgeting. People are living paycheck to paycheck because of sheer ignorance. That ain't manufactured.
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Under Obama, with Dems in the majority in the Senate, they used the standard bi-partisan committee procedures to create an immigration overhaul bill. It was the Democrat's priority second only to health care.

    That bill passed in the Senate and would have passed in the Republican majority House except for Republican Boehner, who blocked it coming to a vote. It received Republican votes in the Senate and would have received a LOT of Republican votes in the House.

    That bill included e-verify improvements and requirements, billions for border improvement, changes to our visa system, etc.

    PLUS, remember that under Obama, the number of resident undocumented aliens became static and remained static throughout Obama's presidency. That hadn't happened for DECADES and Obama's work on the border was critical in that effort.



    Your idea that Democrats have no interest in immigration overhaul that reduces the number of undocumented aliens and that protects jobs is just plain ignorance.

    You should hit the books a little before slinging more partisan nonsense.
     
  15. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    While I applaud the creation of a commission to look into the unlawful detention of European Americans during WWII, having read the bill summary I can't find a single reference to amnesty outside of very broad terms in regards to specialized agricultural workers and childhood arrivals.
     
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The bill that passed the senate includes an amnesty program for those who have been here for some number of years (don't remember the limit), who have not broken other laws. It included significant wait periods, paying back taxes that hadn't been paid, and other penalties.

    In America, any permanent resident can apply for citizenship after some number of years - like 4 or 5. Sen Rubio noted that with this immigration bill it would take 13 years for an undocumented alien who passed all tests and had their paperwork in order to get to the point where they could apply for citizenship. He stated that in his estimation almost none would do so, because of the difficulty, the significant time required, and the fact that they really just wanted legal status for working.
     
  17. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    I will point out that I wasn't able to find any bill which actually came up for a vote in the Senate, and the one I read the summary to never made it out of committee.
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it has a complex name and one has to hunt around a little.

    The wiki gives a reasonably good summary of the bill, which is called:
    "Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013"

    It's also known as S.744 and passed 68 to 32. Speaker Boehner blocked it in the House, though it would have passed at the time.

    It was created and negotiated by the "Gang of 8", 4 Dems and 4 Repos:

    The actual bill:
    https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/senate-bill/744
     
  19. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

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    The far right cannot post a word of truth which could refute what you say in any way.

    Thus, the thread is another Republicans FAIL.
     
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  20. Old Man Fred

    Old Man Fred Active Member

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    If I gave a private company 12% of my income and they told me that they'll only be able to pay 3/4s of my annuity, I would not be reassured. If you can't meet 100% of your obligations that's called insolvency, and it happens to all ponzi schemes.

    For the past 8 years Treasury securities have paid less than 2%, as they just broke that threshold yesterday. My 401(k), on the other hand, returned 11% this year, and that 11% didn't come out of my pocket.
     

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