Were people “stupid” back then?

Most other countries still has the programs for tradesmen, and skilled Craftsmen. Let's face, some people are cut out to be doctors or scientists, while others are meant to be mechanics or plumbers. The US has yet to integrate this in public schools, sports being more important too most.

 

We don't have 'programs for tradesmen and skilled craftsmen'. And there is nothing wrong with American public schools. Your schools are producing high achievers who gain entry to Ivy League colleges, so clearly they're doing it right.

Meantime, I don't agree that children have fixed limits to how far they can go (academically). Children are blank slates.

 

Yes people have limits, or more appropriate is they have an aptitude. Not everyone can be a surgeon, or an engineer. There are those that are better suited as mechanics, plumbers, welders, etc. Would you let your mechanic perform open heart surgery on you?

 

These are not 'limits', they are preferences. Whether unconsciously shaped in early childhood, or conscious decisions in teen years. No newborn is limited by anything other than its parents (assuming he/she is born sound, and is lucky enough to have been born in a nation with public education).

 

would let your cardiologist repair your brakes?...ones chosen profession is not an indicator of ones intelligence.

some people would rather be a mechanic than a surgeon...I don't think my brilliant surgeon buddy is any smarter than my equally brilliant mechanic...I had to literally show my genius cardiologist friend how to adjust a wonky fluorescent light tube, I don't question his ability to work on my heart but I wouldn't let him touch my brakes.

 

The first public school in the USA was Boston Latin established in 1635.We have had public schools ever since.

 

I really wasn't talking about the capacity too learn, but the dedication. A doctor, or surgeon has to dedicate 6 to 12 years of schooling and residency, that's after high school.
A mechanic can get his license in 6 months, plumbers through apprenticeship, same with residential or industrial electricians. I learned CNC machines by watching and learning and have been welding since about 8 years old. I'm now considered a tool and die maker... I am the guy that is the go between engineers and manufacturing. I never went to college for any of this, it was all OJT.

 

I think you're confusing intelligence with knowledge. The cardiologist can't repair brakes because that's not a part of his training or experience. Perhaps if he hadn't been spending decades learning to practice medicine, he would know how to fix brakes.

An issue with society becoming more complicated is that increased specialization is required to be competent. And so we are specialized for our jobs, but are not as self-sufficient.

Surgeons tend to be smarter than average, but just because somebody is a surgeon doesn't mean they're a genius. It's just a shifted bell curve, probably 1 standard deviation.

 

I'm not confusing anything I'm fully aware of the difference, maybe you should read my post again...

 

I don't know where you live but I'd question being a mechanic in 6 months, it's a two year college diploma followed by a 4 yr apprenticeship...and as my buddy who has owned a multi million dollar diesel service shop tells his new graduate hires "forget what you learned in school your training starts today"...

any trade program will be two years plus apprenticeship...and even after all that all graduates are not equal, I've dealt with many mechanics over the years some even after 30 years work are still incompetent, whereas my most recent mechanical gem is absolutely brilliant, he would've been brilliant at any career he chose he just happened to love motorcycles as a career and I'm glad he did...

 

UTI ASE certification program is less than a year, they are one of the better trade schools for mechanics. Since I love classic cars, I do most of the maintenance myself. You go to a garage now a days and if it doesn't have a computer to tell them what to do, then you're out of luck.

 

Urban legend. The exam was real, but it wasn't for eighth graders. The exam mentions "applicants", so it's likely it was an exam for aspiring teachers.

 

I doubt anyone from the 1800's could program a tv or phone...knowledge requirements aren't equal over time...

 

First, you have to remember, that in 1895, 8th grade was pretty much the end of education, and most kids never got a chance to go to the 8th grade, much less past that. Second, we teach 8th graders algebra and about DNA, etc. now. We don't have time for all of the above. The arithmetic section is fairly easy compared to algebra.

 

I agree the feds should be out of it-it's purely a state and local function of government.

Public education is not a failure at the high end. We have a fairly high rate of literacy compared to the rest of U.S. history. Public school students around here dominate in terms of getting scholarships and National Merit Scholarships. I don't know of a single private school student in town who got a National Merit Scholarship, and there were about ten in the public schools. I will grant that on the low end, public education doesn't do much good, but it can't.

 

grumpy old farts everywhere all think they were all smarter than the latest generations...the truth being the average grade 8 student today is far ahead of where the "just about dead" generation was when they were in grade 8...

 

America is actually unique worldwide in that our education is not tracked. We don't have our children take tests in the pre HS grades that determine whether they will be admitted to higher academics or relegated to the "vocational" schools. As far as a system which tries to democratically educate everyone in the same way the USA is probably the best in the world and that is one main reason that most of the high tech industry is still in America. we have the largest pool of workers who can understand hi-tech industry.

 

I know some mechanics that I'd feel a good deal more comfortable with than sleepy Ben Carson. The difference between academic and vocational was always something of an illusion and is becoming more so every day. I know a plumber who learned his craft maintaining the steam boilers on a nuclear submarine and about half of the latest curriculum at Lincoln Tech nowadays is computer programming. Knowledge is knowledge and is, much like history, something of a seamless web

 

You're more foolish than I thought if you'd rather have a mechanic do brain surgery on you than Ben Carson. I agree, politically, Carson is foolish, but in the operating room, he has a great reputation.

 

Actually they're not 'smarter', they're simply harder workers and they're very determined. It takes a LONG time to qualify as a surgeon. Most of which is a tough grind. That doesn't take genius, it takes spine.

 

Same in my country. Our public high schools top the National rankings, every year. Granted they are academically selective (entry on exam) high schools, but that's beside the point. They're free, and accessible by any child, no matter how poor (assuming their parents care enough to get them up to standard, of course).

Also, the same applies here in regards to the 'low end', but there is nothing wrong with those schools - at all. They have exactly the same standards of teaching, and facilities and resources, as schools in wealthy areas. The ONLY difference is the quality of parenting. Which is why they're 'low end' areas in the first place. Scummy people.

 

my local schools are the same, motivation of the parents to instill the importance of effort and the value of education makes the difference...we have fancy private schools but they do no better than our public schools for producing successful graduates...

 

I'm a pathology resident physician, so I work with surgeons directly mostly regarding cancer specimens. I did not say genius, I said smarter on average. For example I would estimate the average IQ is 10 to 15 points higher than average as a group. I would agree though that being hard-working is more of a constant than being really smart. And they're more reliably smart when it comes to things relevant to their job.

 

reliably smart and willing to put in the effort...my nephew an engineer related to me how 75% of the engineering students he started his first year with were gone by the forth, it's not that they weren't very bright because the grade level required for admission was very high...he's says they either couldn't cope with the workload pressure and/or couldn't prioritize their time(not knowing when it was time to party and when it was time to work your arse off)

and as I've posted before it has also to be of interest, there are brilliant people in all walks of life some would rather be a bricklayer than a physician...

 

I think there are brilliant bricklayers. They're just not as common as brilliant surgeons though. There are multiple cut off points that stop a would be surgeon from becoming one. When I was applying to medical school, about 50% didn't make it in anywhere. And then when matching for residency, some people who want to be surgeons can't get matched to a surgery program and so go into a less competitive specialty.