What common ground do modern liberals share with America's founding fathers?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by FixingLosers, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    lol

    Better question, what do modern conservatives have in common with the Founding Fathers? They pretend they respect the Constitution, but they don't. If they did, they would be Libertarians.
     
  2. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    The law clearly states that money was to be deducted from the pay of private employees, and that in return they would be supplied medical treatment when required. You can play word games all day long, but how is this not mandatory health insurance?
     
  3. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Hmmm, so the question I have is: do some cons feel a compulsive need to let the world they know apsolutely nothing about Libs or do they just troll discussion boards to see what sorts of reactions they get when they say outragous nonesense?
     
  4. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yeah, that is called a tax. You should be familiar with that if you are on planet earth. Nowhere were they forced to buy a product from a private company. You really cannot tell the difference between paying taxes and buying a car?
     
  5. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    So the difference between something the founding fathers established and the ACA is that the writers of the Constitution implemented it as a tax, whereas you have a choice to purchase health care or face a tax with the ACA...
    "the Supreme Court found that penalties the law places on people who don't buy health insurance count as a tax protected by the Constitution."
    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/05/politics/scotus-health-care-tax/

    BTW, you believe that there is a functional difference between the founding fathers telling private employees that they WILL have money taken for them in order to obtain health coverage, and those private employees being given the option of either purchasing health coverage or paying a tax? If anything, the ACA is less dictatorial...

    And this illustrates that conservatives are more in line with the founding fathers?! :roflol:
     
  6. Athelite

    Athelite Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't follow every single thing my father has taught me, why would I the Founding Fathers? Some of their ideas, things they taught, are not useful in the world today and prevent progress.

    Times have changed. Bibles have outdated ideas, no different for Founding Fathers.
     
  7. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    People who idolize the founders only do so when the founders' beliefs match their own.

    Partisans love to quote George Washington, but they won't bring up the fact that he hated political parties and preached that they would be the destruction of the United States because their members care more about making sure others parties fail than doing what is needed for the nation.
     
  8. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So you still don't know the difference between a tax and buying a car. Check.

    Remember Obama, the alleged Constitutional Scholar saying it was not a tax?

    The only reason it is a tax is due to judicial activism making law from the bench. The administration argued it to be a mandate and that was deemed unconstitutional and since it was, the law should have been found to be unconstitutional. Forcing someone to purchase a product is called illegal force, something the government is supposed to protect us from, not that Congress pays much attention to the Constitution mind you.
     
  9. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    So you still don't understand that either of these situations has the same effect and any effort to say otherwise is purely focus on trivial semantics:
    a) The government takes pay in the form of a tax and ensuring you get health care, or
    b) The government tells you to spend that same money on health care...

    Check.

    You're right, he was originally trying to make it identical (albeit on a larger scale) to the precedent set by the writers of the Constitution, who didn't call theirs a tax either...
     
  10. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    The Founding Fathers sound like a secretive religious order from the planet Magrathea.
     
  11. sonofthunder

    sonofthunder Member

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    Holy cow the voice of reason in this thread lol

    This site is almost a microcosm of the American society. The reasonable, moderate, center left, center or center-right ways of thinking are a thing of the past. It's all about being extreme left or extreme right now. To those on either end of the spectrum, in their eyes the founding fathers either had views just like theirs or were evil bigots lol

    I took a break from this site after the Zimmerman verdict, but it hasn't changed. Please, continue, it's entertaining as always!
     
  12. Logician0311

    Logician0311 Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with that. For the record, I believe most people tend to discuss issues from the perspective of the issues' degree of liberal/conservative (ie: left/right) ideologies rather than strictly party (Democratic/Republican) lines - but those distinctions blur easily since parties have tendancies toward one ideology or the other.
     
  13. Marine1

    Marine1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Difference is, Republicans don't want our government controlled by our religion, Muslims do. That is why many left England and came here.

    Republicans are against late term abortion, not all abortions. We know some times there are good reasons to have an abortion. But certainly not as a form of birth control,

    Islam is too supportive of the death penalty. They would even put a homosexual to death. Some who change their religion.

    Republicans don't believe women should have fewer rights than men.

    We don't think homosexually is evil and should be outlawed. We do believe it shouldn't be called a marriage.

    We don't oppose “multiculturalism. We do oppose making illegals, citizens. Our nation is flooded with different cultures, races and religions.
     
  14. Marine1

    Marine1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with Washington. I hate parties and have stated that scores of times. But do you know anyone that you are in full agreement on in every issue? I don't.
     
  15. Cdnpoli

    Cdnpoli Banned

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    Why are people still caring what the founding fathers would think? They have long been dead.
     
  16. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    I think I have told you before Marine that I am a Fiscally Conservative and Socially Liberal Independent from Massachusetts and I vote for who I believe is the best candidate NOT along any Party Lines.

    Now in Mass. we have Universal Health Care and although I think you know what kind of...JOBS I sometimes do....I also help run several now large Family Owned Companies so when our Republican Governor Mitt Romney started putting together a team of the very best and smartest people to develop what is now Massachusetts Universal Health Care...and this is what Obama Care really is....ROMNEY CARE.....well when Romney first started talking about covering everyone....and since we have a good number of employees and I was already paying a lot of money for Health Care for myself and for the people working for us.....I WAS NERVOUS!!

    Here is the thing.....I am WEALTHY and my Heath Care Payments WENT DOWN!!!!

    EVERYONE in Massachusetts is covered and we found out that the amount of money we were paying to cover the Hospitals, Doctors, Nurses, Emergency Rooms, Ambulances, Police and Fire Dept....even with Federal Help....as both the Feds. and State must cover the Emergency Room and other costs for people who go there without any insurance and no possible way to pay either because they are poor or out of work or middle class and just at the time could not afford to pay the Bills or pay for Insurance......ALL this money we were paying out to cover these costs was HIGHER THAN THE AMOUNT OF MONEY UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE COSTS IN MASS.....and we have a BALANCED BUDGET!!!!!!

    So....Universal Health Care WORKS....as long as no one in Washington starts screwing around with the correct plan that Romney along with total Bi-Partisan Help from the Mass. Legislature and the Best and Brightest in the BIZ who helped developed this plan.

    Now I am sure I don't have to remind you how important Massachusetts and the actions in the 1770's of the people of Massachusetts were to creating our country.

    Without what happened in Mass.....I highly doubt the Revolutionary War would have happened.....or at the very least without the Massachusetts people....a war would have happened much later.

    Now it is true the Founding Fathers never thought about issues such as Abortion or Gay Marriage....etc....BUT WHAT THEY DID THINK ABOUT.....especially TOMAS JEFFERSON and BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.....WAS THE FUTURE!!!

    And because they thought so much about the ever evolving changes and needs of the future Citizens of the United States.....quite possibly the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT DOCUMENT IN HISTORY.....the U.S. Constitution....was written in a manner that makes it so flexible and so easy to allow for the evolution of future social needs....that when I read it now and then IT JUST ASTOUNDS ME!!!!

    I think people should stop separating each other by Political Parties, Race, Creed and Color....because you should know this just as I do BETTER THAN MOST.....When you are being shot at from all directions....the LAST thing on your mind is....What is the color...or race....or religion....or Political assignment of the person behind me watching my 6?

    AboveAlpha
     
  17. Marine1

    Marine1 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Universal healthcare might work and people might be able to buy it cheaper, but from what I am hearing, is the cost of the deductible. From what I understand there are different plans. The cheaper plans have the much higher deductible and the higher cost plans have a lower deductible. Stands to reason, poorer people will buy the cheaper plan and high deductible and may never be able to collect on some, or all bills because they couldn't meet the deductible. Does that sound possible?

    I also don't think a company is compelled to offer the higher priced and better plan. I would think they could offer the cheapest plan and still meet the government requirements.
     
  18. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    The way it is run in Mass....and the way it is designed is that by increasing Insurance Companies income by shear numbers being covered....that the Insurance Companies must cover everyone and anyone and deductibles if anything.....HAVE GONE DOWN!!!

    They have gone down to zero for the poor....gone down a few bucks for the middle class....and what Romney did was to label the MIDDLE CLASS as people NOT MAKING $250-$300 THOUSAND DOLLARS....as those people can afford their deductible being the same or a few bucks higher.....and anyone can upgrade their plan using any Insurance Company....they get the cost pro-rated by the state.

    IT WORKS....as long as no one screws with it.

    AboveAlpha
     
  19. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    What common ground does anyone share with people who've been dead for 200+ years? What an utterly disingenuous question!
     
  20. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    Actually....I believe I share a great deal of Common Ground with some of these 200 year old plus dead.

    I am Socially Liberal and Fiscally Conservative so I guess that qualifies me for being part Liberal.

    I think this is an EXCELLENT QUESTION and I also think the same question should be asked of Modern Conservatives.

    I think that many of us Americans Liberal or Conservative or like me...BOTH....ASPIRE just to have the right to say that we share common ground with the Founding Father's of the United States.

    Sure...there is always someone who is going to make the random remark in the negative such as...Well...why would you want to aspire to be a Slave Owner?...etc....but the men who wrote the Constitution and I personally think I would share a great deal of Common Ground with Jefferson, Franklin, Adams...etc.

    The Constitution of the United States of America could quite possibly be the single most important document EVER WRITTEN AND DEVELOPED. And it's genius is only exceeded by it's ability to evolve.

    Share Common Ground?

    I hope to GOD we all do!

    AboveAlpha
     
  21. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    Well they didn't see fit to abolish slavery...

    Constitution adopted 1787
    Ammendments 1-10 1791
    Ammendment 13 (abolition of slavery) 1865

    Highly unlikely that your founding fathers signed that off.

    On this issue alone, most people nowadays deplor slavery, yet these guys didn't outlaw it, even though both Britain and France had already been though the age of enlightenment.

    So I would say that this highlights the fact of time. Yes, those were different times, people thought differently, and this is my exact point.
     
  22. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    Furthermore:

    16th Allows the federal government to collect income tax July 12, 1909 February 3, 1913

    Can you imagine a USA today with no Federal income tax? Meaning, no nation wide defence, no NASA, no Federal government at all.

    A TPers wet dream no doubt, but a dream nonetheless.

    **********************

    There are a good few other examples in the ammendments, which would seem to illustrate that a person alive today, has little in common with the values and priorities of your founding fathers. Which is why one of them wanted it rewritten each 19 years.
     
  23. Junkieturtle

    Junkieturtle Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It's not just that he didn't have a rebuttal, it's that he was basically asking you to stop making sense in his thread that was supposed to be for bashing liberals.
     
  24. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    I see you really didn't read through what I wrote.

    This is part of my post and I CANNOT BELIEVE you actually posted what I said you or someone would post....no...actually...I believe it.

    This is part of my post.


    Sure...there is always someone who is going to make the random remark in the negative such as...Well...why would you want to aspire to be a Slave Owner?...etc....but the men who wrote the Constitution and I personally think I would share a great deal of Common Ground with Jefferson, Franklin, Adams...etc.

    There is ALWAYS SOMEONE! LOL!!!

    AboveAlpha
     
  25. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    Not really, I think they're the most relevant thing. It's the notion that there are things that the government SHOULD NOT DO. This isn't really only a Left thing, it's all of modern politics. Neither party has said, in the last 20 years, in response to a problem "The government should not do anything about that". Which was the whole point of the founders -- that government could not tell you how to think, could not curb your speech, could not spy on you, and could not arrest you without cause. All of which have been gutted by both parties. Now, you will lose your job or business if politically incorrect speech is connected to your name, the government is forcing people to choose between keeping their business or acting in accord with their religious beliefs. The NSA spies on everything you do on the internet, and they can in fact arrest you on American soil (so long as the President approves). Beyond that, we've seriously proposed banning sodas that are too big, among other silly laws.

    The problem is that too many think that the founders had nothing to say, so they assume that the government can do all of this.
     

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