What common ground do modern liberals share with America's founding fathers?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by FixingLosers, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    Do I REALLY have to explain this again to you?

    The point is not what the Founding Fathers had as working Government.

    The POINT is they developed a Constitution that could EVOLVE with the times.

    I certainly know I and many others share Common Ground with them as far as designing a versatile and changable system while still keeping it's core roots sound.

    AboveAlpha
     
  2. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    Sorry about that! :)

    From what I see (and the OP is a perfect example of this), your founding fathers and constitution are more of a stick, which can be used politically to try to prove a greater degree of "American-ness".

    No offence, but you have no clue as to whether you would share common ground with these guys and it's pointless imagining so. One of them wanted the COTUS to be revised each 19 years, so that a current generation wouldn't be burdened by the opinions of the previsous generation. A very sound idea if you ask me.

    As a document, the Magna Carta was very influential for the UK (and indeed the world), written in my country, for my predecessors. Do I feel that I have something in common with them? No. I don't even think about it because it as a very long time ago.

    Also, you pre-guessing that someone would raise the slavery issue, does not make it unimportant, it is important. Our values right here and now, would probably make the threat of the return of slavery into our countries the number one issue of our time. Far more important than Obamacare, banks failing, share prices and debts. Yet they did not view this our way. This is how far detatched we are from them, in their time. This is not, as you said "negative", not at all. It's critical in understanding the different values they had to us, and therefore how different we are to them.
     
  3. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    Again....the Common Ground shared is in the ability of these men to write the Constitution so it could be changed to eliminate SLAVERY.

    THAT...is my point.

    AboveAlpha
     
  4. septimine

    septimine New Member

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    Which is a good deal better than most other ways of measuring -- ethnic loyalty is pretty rough stuff, especially if you don't share the right genes. I suppose loyalty to a King is OK, at least until the King decides to do something evil. What else is there besides the ideals of the country?

    I think it would actually be a disaster, as there's no guarentee against the new COTUS removing civil rights. A constitution written just after 9-11 might very well have done away with the 4th Amendment as dangerous. Same thing with other rights.

    29. NO Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.[45]

    You actually do have a lot in common with those who framed the Magna Carta -- the idea of the rule of law, the idea of standing before a jury, not selling people. That's the point we have with the founders, the idea of Rule of Law, of being judged by peers, and so on. Without those limits, you have only the whim of the king, and if King Charles is crazy (he did marry Camilla) then you could face random charges for no reason.

    It's unimportant because it's settled law in 99% of the Western World. The only reason people like to bring up slavery is as a club to beat up those who believe that the American Founders had anything to say. While we've moved on from slavery, I dare say that we haven't moved on from the notion that arbitrary imprisonment, cruel punishments, and government spying are bad ideas. The personal attack on them isn't an appeal to reason, it's an appeal to emotionally judging the founders as bad people rather than listening to the argument. That's why such an attack is so predictable -- it's because it serves as a preventive for reasoning. If you can make liking the founders to liking slavery, you hope that it stops there.
     
  5. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Is that why they use their religion, and what THEIR god said should happen to explain why things like gay marriage should not be allowed, and why drugs should be banned?
     
  6. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    So you feel that you have common ground with people, who died several humdren years ago, in a time without computers, electricity, cars, plastic, TV, radio, plastic etc.... On the premise that they wrote a document, that could be revised.

    That my friend is a very very tenuous link. Tenuous and not very credible.

    More than likely you "feel" this affinity to them, because to the over romanticism toward them in the USA.
     
  7. AboveAlpha

    AboveAlpha Well-Known Member

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    If anything I don't believe these Founding Fathers are as you say....Romanticized enough!

    I don't know if you are American or not but that doesn't matter....have you ever read the U.S. Constitution?

    That document was the FIRST WRITTEN DOCUMENT to express equality among men....granted they could not get the Southern States to go along with abolishing slavery....but they did make the Constitution able to evolve.

    Prior to the U.S. Constitution....no other document....IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MAN.....had put forth anything even close to the Bill of Rights.

    AboveAlpha
     
  8. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Taxation

    Forcing you to buy a private party product, called illegal force.
     
  9. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    Except the Magna Carta.
     
  10. lizarddust

    lizarddust Well-Known Member

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    And the English Bill of Rights of 1689.
     
  11. Leffe

    Leffe New Member

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    And yet, I still idolise these people, now long dead, who wrote the document. I wish so hard that we could return to those days. ;)
     
  12. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I see You are here, so your statement is self fulfilling.

    - - - Updated - - -

    You do not have to buy the product, you can pay the tax instead so it can be used to help cover the medical bills you would rack up incase of a major illness and everyone else gets to pay for.
     
  13. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    We actually understand the Wisdom that was Ordained and Established by our Founding Fathers.
     
  14. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Extortion.
     
  15. CaptainAngryPants

    CaptainAngryPants New Member

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    What does this incoherent word jumble mean?
     
  16. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I didn't know it was a criminal offense for the federal government to coerce somebody to do something via taxation. Better get rid of every single tax deduction in our tax system because somebody on the internet claims it is extortion!
     
  17. RationalThinker

    RationalThinker New Member

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    Not with propagandized national central control they didn't. No one can deny that the public education system from elementary to post grad isn't indoctrinating young people to a progressive politically correct ideology. Almost exactly like Communists do.
     
  18. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Forcing someone to buy a product is called illegal force, something the government is to protect us from not do to us.

    Freedom is so passe for some now days. I doubt they even know what it means.
     
  19. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'll deny that right here and right now. What exactly is being taught that indoctrinates young people to a progressive politically correct ideology?
     
  20. GraspingforPeace

    GraspingforPeace Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you know what illegal means.

    Freedom is a nebulous term with everybody from Libertarians, to Conservatives, to Communists, to every political ideology imaginable still argue over. Freedom has become a buzzword, nothing more. Do you have an exact definition of freedom that everybody can agree to?
     
  21. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    Except no one is forcing you to buy anything.
     
  22. Greataxe

    Greataxe Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Founders were all about freedom and small government. Liberals today are all about freeloading and big government.

    The basic workings of the US Constitution both people support about the same, however, a large set of liberals do support the caucus system of voting and want simple majority votes for presidental elections.

    As for the Bill of Rights:

    Article 1: Liberals hate. Anti-free religion as no school prayer, etc. Many, like Obama support anti-free speech "hate crimes" legislatiion.
    Article 2: Liberals find the 2nd amendment detestable. They infringe any way they can.
    Article 3: No problem.
    Article 4: Liberals think probable cause has morphed into something new. Many liberals support violent gangs because of the narcotics so many of them use.
    Article 5: Liberals believe everything belongs to "Big Brother." Libersl support income redistribution through unfair taxes and other means.
    Article 6: Liberals have no concept of "speedy" justice, and think appeals and delays for their criminal friends should be indefinite.
    Article 7: Liberals don't want their "innocents" to do much if any time and support heavy use of plea bargins.
    Article 8: Liberals twist the meaning of "cruel and unusual" to anything they imagine. Not getting extra cruncy peanut butter in prison, for example.
    Article 9: Liberals have really no respect for the Constitution. This article is of no real importance to them.
    Article10: Liberals only support states rights in matters of gay marriage, pot use or other progressive measures.
     
  23. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    They were "progressives".
     
  24. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    And like many private and religous schools do, except their indoctrination has a different bent.
    If you hate it so much why don't you become a teacher and do something about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Make sure to spread that evenly on your garden, it will grow like crazy.
     
  25. RationalThinker

    RationalThinker New Member

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    You're joking right? Have you ever heard of "Diversity Training"? Educator's and their organizations at every level have a lock on what is taught and you must conform or you will be out.

    Try expressing any views outside of the progressive secularist ideology of gay marriage, climate change, religion, anti-union, abortion and I could go on and on and you are ostracized and impugned.

    At this rate, in the future, if you do not conform to the political correct thinking you will be deemed mentally ill or worse. This is what the Soviets did to what they called dissidents. In the extreme, it is a bullet in the head ala Pol Pot.
     

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