What, exactly, is socialism? Again this discussion seems necessary.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kode, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Because it was a dictatorship of the state OVER the proletariat (working class). Answer me this: in that specific case, do you believe the workers were in control of workers, or that state bureaucrats were in control of workers?
     
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    A state is always in control of everyone. That's what makes it a state and not like any other organization in a free society. So, yes. The state, like all states, was in control.

    Are you suggesting that the dictatorship of the proletariat won't be a state?
     
  3. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Then there's your answer: it wasn't socialism!

    No! Have you no imagination? The state will be entirely subject to the will of the working class by the establishment of workers' organizations of various kinds which will guide the state in serving the working class.

    Now, you can argue that it will never happen if you like, but then that only means that you believe socialism will never happen. Because if workers are not in control of the state, it isn't socialism, --BY DEFINITION.
     
  4. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    But workers are currently in control of the state. Does that mean it's a socialist state?
     
  5. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Why is it a problem for someone to issue a promissory note redeemable in money to the bearer on demand?
     
  6. james M

    james M Well-Known Member

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    because you never knew if there was any real money there. 1+1=2
     
  7. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Don't we have laws against fraud?
     
  8. james M

    james M Well-Known Member

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    yep but we needed a far bigger police regulatory government bureaucracy to make it work (auditors at each bank) , and that does not include trying to handle the fluctuating values of the money relative to gold silver or other paper currencies or other commodities.
     
  9. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You're confused. During the time you are describing gold and silver WERE the money. The banknotes were simply a promissory note redeemable in money to the bearer on demand.

    Trust in the market, oh socialist one...
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  10. james M

    james M Well-Known Member

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    totally 100% wrong and illiterate. wildcat banks often had no money behind the paper they issued and if they did in the beginning there was no guarantee they would later on. And there was no bureaucracy to even establish a ratio between real money and paper money. Banks inflated at will.

    100 miles away nobody knew anything about your money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So people issued promissory notes and were unable to deliver to the bearer on demand? I can see that this business would be fraudulent and be charged with fraud.

    Not sure what this has to do with gold and silver being money or a free market in money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  12. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You again seem to be confusing money (i.e. gold and silver) with a promissory note redeemable in money.
     
  13. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    What state? You're dreaming.
     
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    The USA
     
  15. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You again seem to be confusing money (i.e. gold and silver) with a promissory note redeemable in money.
     
  16. markrc99

    markrc99 Member

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    Corporations were never a product of the state, but rather finance. To this day, the largest shareholders are in fact financial institutions. I mentioned the existing model around globe, where weak central governments in fact tend to attract multinational firms, not deter their interest. Your premise is that w/o the state altogether, we wouldn't have corporations. Assumingly, you believe that something magically wonderful, serving the collective interests of us all would fill that void. It's dog$h!+:

    When someone uses the term 'capital' & you're befuddled & then attempt to deflect, it's likely because you have no idea of what you're talking about. The source above uses the term 'finance capital', do you suddenly understand now?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  17. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    You: Defending capital's decision to marginalize its workforce [...]

    Capital can't make decisions, because capital isn't a rational actor.
     
  18. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Then why does the state require articles of incorporation?
     
  19. markrc99

    markrc99 Member

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    Totally disagree, however we agree that it would be great if outcome-driven tactics weren't necessary or resorted to. But the fact is we have outcome forcings in the existing model. There's an inherent conflict of interest between that of capital & labor. The state has almost always beaten down labor which has always had to fight for a living wage & the working class is losing that fight! Worker productivity has been increasing for decades while compensation, stagnant.

    Equality & equity aren't a certainty in any system! If any part of what I said isn't working, let me say this; I'm not interested in changing your mind about anything. But in a free market & free society, you should & would see collectives seriously threatening the existing structure. You don't believe in single-payer, you feel you're better represented on your own, fine. But that "choice" should be there for those of us who do & it should be concerning to you that it isn't. As I've said elsewhere, I have no problem conceding the definition of the word. Along with cooperatives there should be a greater influence of environmentally-sustainable, non-profits, consumer-oriented, a living wage, local, essentially, a complete restoration of the commons!
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  20. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Are you of the belief that socialism must be forced suddenly upon us by a violent revolution?
     

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