What, exactly, is socialism? Again this discussion seems necessary.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kode, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Right, as long as no one else has paid the community just compensation for exclusive tenure on it. You just have to again choose to put on your disgraceful and despicable feigned ignorance act.
     
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Wait what? Someone can violate my right to liberty? I have a right to liberty. I can use any land I want because it has been provided by nature.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    They can by definition if anyone (like a landowner) enjoys exclusive land tenure. Under my system such violations are justly compensated, whereas under yours, they are simply forcibly inflicted on others as a deliberate injustice.
    The liberty of non-exclusive use of all land is the natural condition of human beings. Security of property rights in fixed improvements cannot be reconciled with that. Therefore, to the extent that anyone deprives others of their liberty right to access opportunity by holding exclusive tenure, they owe just compensation to the community of those thus deprived.
     
  4. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Compensated? Like you're saying that I would have to pay a landlord money in order to have access to what I would otherwise have access to? That sounds like a violation of my rights to liberty.
     
  5. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    <yawn> You again choose to put on your disgraceful and despicable feigned ignorance act.

    Yes, of course the landholder violates your right to liberty by holding exclusive tenure. We established that days ago, and you agreed. The question is whether he should be required to make just compensation for violating your right to liberty. I say yes, you say no.
    That is the natural condition under which our ancestors thrived for millions of years, but it is not compatible with secure property rights in fixed improvements. As you know, but are disingenuously, disgracefully, and despicably pretending not to.
     
  6. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    They can't violate my rights to liberty. They can't prevent me using what nature has provided.
     
  7. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but for exclusive rather than the natural but much less valuable non-exclusive access, and only for the amount in excess of the universal individual exemption (UIE).
    Exclusive land tenure certainly is, as you already agreed. You just don't want such violations to be justly compensated because you prefer injustice to justice. Simple.
     
  8. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So you're proposing a system in which landlords would violate my rights to liberty by preventing me from accessing the land that nature has provided unless I pay them?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  9. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    They can and do because it is inherent in exclusive tenure, as you already agreed. You again choose to put on your disgraceful and despicable feigned ignorance act.
     
  10. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and make just compensation for what they are taking from you, as you know. I'm not against exclusive tenure, as you know. It's necessary to civilization, as you also know. I'm only against injustice in exclusive tenure (and taxation), as you also know. You are in favor of injustice and prefer it to justice, as you also know.

    You again choose to put on your disgraceful and despicable feigned ignorance act.
     
  11. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So under your system I would need to pay a landlord in order to have access to the land that nature has provided?
     
  12. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, that's false and outrageous. People's natural liberty rights to use land are not now respected or justly compensated when they are not respected, and everyone is forced to subsidize landowners through both taxation and the forcible removal of their rights to liberty.
     
  13. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    That's the way things were before secure property rights in significant fixed improvements required exclusive tenure.

    You again choose to put on your disgraceful and despicable feigned ignorance act.
     
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So under your system I would need to pay a landlord in order to have access to the land that nature has provided?
     
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  15. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    As is inherent in exclusive tenure and security of property rights in fixed improvements, as you already know and have stipulated.

    You again choose to put on your disgraceful and despicable feigned ignorance act.
     
  16. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    So under your system I would need to pay a landlord in order to have access to the land that nature has provided?
     
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  17. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    It's not perfect. Your point...?
    It's not an example of my idea, just proof that private property in land is not necessary or even good.
     
  18. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You seriously think Hong Kong is doing it better than America?

    I'm going to make the assumption that you've either never been there, or spent so little time there that all you saw was the fantasy land of the fast tourist. Try experiencing day to day life there as a working class person. You'll be crying for American capitalism within a week.

    FTR: 'not perfect' in response to people living in cages .. is outrageous.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Yadda yadda. In practice it's 'buying and selling' land. You want access to that patch of land? Pay for it. Same as ever.
     
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Because that NEVER happens. No two people ever want the same piece of land.

    Holy moly this is a farce!
     
  21. BleedingHeadKen

    BleedingHeadKen Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, but it's government, and after they take their 50% and move their dachas on to the choicest land, you get crumbs from their table. That's "justice."
     
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  22. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I always find fake libertarians sneering at the real variety amusing. How do you think land ownership formed? Through force. You seriously going to ignore that reality and just play kiss chase with big business?
     
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  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

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    Who would you prefer owns the land? Millions of individuals or the state?
     
  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That's why private individual ownership was such a breakthrough. Let us never return to the old ways!
     
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    They think the theft of all privately owned lands, and the subsequent King-like control of same, is somehow less 'forcey'.

    In the end, the whole thing is about resentment and envy. If they can't own them some, they don't want anyone else owning it either. They're clever enough to dress it up as 'social conscience' which is cute - and admittedly has been good fun. Like Space Invaders when you can beat the machine.
     
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