What, exactly, is socialism? Again this discussion seems necessary.

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by Kode, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'll ask again - what are you doing to 'disallow' it? Details please. What are you DOING in contravention of the system you claim to hate?
     
  2. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'll ask you again, also. What are you DOING in contravention of the system you claim to hate?

    What are you doing to avoid PARTICIPATING in the rent-seeking and capitalism you claim to hate?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  3. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Absurd strawman and non sequitur.
    Absurd strawman.
    On you.
    The tragedy of the commons is not the only problem with commons.
     
  4. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Are you back to your argument that, because you're charitable like Bill Gates, you're left wing? This really isn't difficult. Unless the workers have control and ownership of the means of production, there is no socialism. Unless there is nationalisation of land, there will necessarily be injustice.

    You and bringiton are competing on your irrelevance. I don't know who will win. You have a desperately lazy gait, but his blinkers have slipped.
     
  5. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Is this supposed to be a response? Crikey, we're talking about the subject that you go on and on and on and on about. You still can't manage content. Why is it that local co-ordination manages to avoid the tragedy of the commons? Content this time, for feck's sake.
     
  6. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    I'll ask a third time:

    What are YOU doing to 'disallow' the system you claim to hate. What are YOU doing to avoid participating in the system you claim to hate?
     
  7. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    This amused me. You seem to think that, by being right wing, you're necessarily delivering left wing outcome. I can't change the system. I have no power. That's the very reason we need left wing radical change, both worker ownership and local land co-operative.
     
  8. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Fourth time:

    What are you doing to avoid participating in a system you claim to hate? You cannot claim to hate it, while supporting it with every facet of your existence. Well you can, but no one is ever going to believe it.
     
  9. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You keep being inane. Its the same as your fake libertarian chums that think, because worker cooperatives are more productive, socialism will naturally appear through the economic decisions of the individual. It won't. It won't because the economic system is characterised by rent. You ignore that rent because you are right wing. By simply stating "I'm nice, honest", you support the rent seeker.

    Cute how you right wingers pretend that you're anarchists mind you ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Fifth time:

    What are YOU doing to AVOID PARTICIPATING IN THE CAPITALISM AND RENT SEEKING you claim to hate?
     
  11. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You're trolling now as I have answered you repeatedly. Of course that's also standard right wing tactic.

    I'm not the one supporting supply side economics. I'm not the one justifying injustice through land baron ownership. Unless you change the paradigm, you're pishing in the wind. Perhaps anarcho communism in your world means sharing out your hot tub as warm glow altruism?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2020
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You haven't once answered. Nowhere have you outlined what you are doing to AVOID PARTICIPATING in the system you claim to hate. Not a single detail. It's not like I don't know the reason for your avoidance .. it's pretty clear you engage in full participation - voluntarily - but for the sake of appearances why don't you just make something up?
     
  13. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Your continued trolling is not appreciated. I know you're upset for being found out to be a standard right winger, but have a word with yourself. An individual cannot eliminate wage exploitation. An individual cannot buy a million acres and eliminate land injustice. An individual, however, can excel once market socialism is delivered.
     
  14. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) An individual who is genuine in their antipathy towards the System, will do everything in their power to avoid supporting it. That much we both know. Words have no value in the absence of action. The world is full of comfortable First Worlders declaring 'we must find a better way!', yet doing absolutely nothing to find it. Doing nothing is declaring your love of the System.

    2) A group of individuals CAN buy a million acres. Or even a hundred. And that group is then several steps (rent, food, water) less dependent upon the System.

    3) Individuals can excel any time they like. A significant proportion don't want to, but of course you don't tolerate that kind of agency and free will.
     
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  15. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    I at least thank you for this comment. It is standard methodological individualism, as applied to that supply side economics that dominates your comment. You're ultimately describing how gross inequalities of opportunity can be ignored because, if they happen, its really just a natural part of the market. Now I find that ludicrously simplistic, but its great that you're at least open where your right wing attitudes are generated. God bless you.
     
  16. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    Management. Any competent administration of a natural resource can do that, which is why Garrett Hardin, the author of "The Tragedy of the Commons" later wished he had called his work, "The Tragedy of the Unmanaged Commons." Private ownership achieves the same thing with greater allocative efficiency than the local political management you advocate (though at the expense of transferring wealth to the owners), and so does market rental allocation with location subsidy repayment (LSR), which achieves better allocative efficiency as well as more justice than local political management.
     
  17. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    No, nationalization of land cannot achieve justice because it neither restores nor compensates the equal individual liberty right to use land that exclusive tenure removes, nor does it recover the publicly created rental value of land for the purposes and benefit of the public that creates it. Only market allocation through location subsidy repayment (LSR) can do that. The only way to ensure justice in public revenue and land tenure is through LSR with a universal individual exemption (UIE).
     
  18. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I'm describing what we have to replace it with if we want liberty, justice and prosperity, and explaining why that would be incomparably better for almost everyone.
    I am participating in them. It's called, "self-defense." But unlike apologists for privilege and injusitce, I don't defend it just because I profit from it.
     
  19. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    Is this because I keep calling you out on your love of the System?
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  20. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    1) 'describing', eh? you rebel, you! viva la revolution!

    2) at least you're honest enough to own your preference. thanks for that.
     
  21. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    The only means to ensure that there is justice is to give the local community full control over the resource. We know that the tragedy of the commons does not hold. We are then left with land use effectively generating public good attribute.
     
  22. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    You're struggling with logic. I've rejected methodological individualism, stating the obvious: Because of the economic paradigm there cannot be a marginal shift towards some utopia. The market, reliant on rent, cannot deliver maximisation of productivity or justice to land use. Until you realise that slice of obvious, you're just repeating the same grunt from the Chicago School.
     
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    You can do whatever you want, in a democracy. Run your own show, according to your lights. You SHOULD want the same for everyone else, also.
     
  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    And how will that ensure 'justice'? A community is made up of humans. And human nature being what it is, some will seek to regain the same 'land owner' power you're trying to end - and some will be happy to 'rent'. That's how it will ALWAYS play out, in a democracy.
     
  25. Reiver

    Reiver Well-Known Member

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    Look at the pretend anarcho communist attacking community control :)
     

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