What good is religion?

Crickets, with a penchant for chirping, "per-sis-tence, and pop-u
lar-ity," yeah?

I don't want to say much more; I'm actually enjoying the peace.


P.S.-- I assume you've seen the newer thread, with almost the same theme as this one, "We'd be better off without religion?" Any impressions?

 

Have you noticed where religion is repressed like the Soviet Union, China and North Korea the religious urge is transferred to leader and the party, making the leader god-like and not to be questioned. That was probably the intent of the suppression. Atheists being inherently skeptical and usually members of the intellectual class were purged.
BTW I did comment on that thread (#38) and got crickets.

 

That is a very insightful conclusion, and something I'd never put together, for myself. Did you read that somewhere, or come up with it, on your own?

 

Seemed obvious...and I don't know where that emoji came from.

 

Well, it's good for you to know, in case you ever decide to try your hand at being an evil-genius dictator, that you have an aptitude for it.



As for the sunglassed sun, he shows up in my posts too, sometimes, typically replacing the number 8.

 

RE: What good is religion?
SUBTOPIC: Impressions of Value
※→. DEFinning, et al,

Religion is, in many ways, the spark for ethics, accepted social behaviors, and moral values. It is not the only source of these components of humanity, but certainly a key widget in their development.

(COMMENT)

Does everyone need religion? Probably not. Like the occults, Wicca, witchcraft, paganism, nirvana, and high planes of existence, etc, etc, etc, they all involve a supernatural component and a belief structure. Each one has both an evil component and a component of goodness. Many of them have set rituals and some involve a belief in alchemy (usually the transmutation of something simple like bread and wine). Whether it is monotheistic (a Supreme Being), or polytheism (multiple deities), there are usually other lesser supernatural beings (angels, demigods, seraphim, etc). And most, but not all, have a guidebook or handbook of some sort (grimoire, bible, sacred scrolls, etc) form which are recorded the core beliefs. Some come to believe in the paranormal capacities or a life force (the essence of life).

Whatever they may believe in, the reasoning is most often a sense of purpose. And this brings with it mental calm snd satisfaction (White Magic) while others bring hostility and aggravation (Black Magic) (some say profound wickedness). Some are evangelistic (David Koresh, Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, etc) and some are materialistic in their nature (those that divest their followers of wealth or believe in the inherent human immortality of man). Some use religious beliefs as a tool to attain a goal.

Most religions serve a purpose to some segment of society whether it is for the White or the Dark. If it serves no purpose, it will eventually fade away.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

I agree with you Rocco and I am not a religious person. Every society in human history has adopted religion. Every one. The reason is that it contributes to peace and social control. It reduces chaos. It sparks ethics and morality as you say. Despite my own feelings, I would certainly rather live in a society with religion than in one without it.

To say that religion serves no purpose is ridiculous. The purpose is obvious. People are riddled with weaknesses. Just look at the current crime problem caused being soft on crime. Morality reduces these weaknesses and religion fosters morality. Those who oppose religion do so for impractical reasons. I'm not sure what the reasons are but they certainly are being helped by religion rather than being hurt by it by living in a more controlled and peaceful society.

 

I agree-- though it should be noted that the reverse is also true, that religions have often not been the origin for ethics, mores, & so forth, but the tool employed to persuade people to follow codes of behavior, which have been deemed desirable by society's leaders, by virtue of common sense, and through the lessons of experience. The member @Kokomojojo has said, I believe, that this is always the order of progression.

You may have the wrong impression of my spiritual orientation toward existence; I absolutely believe that there is a level of reality-- if not many levels--which escape our normal perception. I am skeptical of anyone making specific assertions as to what those unseen realms are like, however. Still, if you read my earlier posts, here, you will see that I strongly disagree with Gabmux's notions about religion. Certainly, religions have often been used as an excuse for inhumane actions, and even to inflame hatred; but I attribute that hypocritical ugliness to human nature, merely availing itself of religion's negative potentials-- I don't generally see "religion," as the cause. Were there no religion, people would just make use of other means to discriminate against those we view as, "different." This is hardly even a speculation, on my part, as we clearly already do this, in many other arenas. Maybe part of the fervor displayed by acolytes of some of our current political sects, is a result of not having had the outlet of enough religious holy wars, of late.

Many people despise of those who think differently than themselves, who look differently, who have different tastes & preferences-- in extreme cases, people have been physically harmed, for rooting for the wrong sports team; fear, intolerance, & misunderstanding, with or w/out religion, will always find some vehicle, to deliver their "judgements."

I think it will prove more enjoyable to discuss some of the more beneficial (even laudable) effects of religion. Of course, humans clearly seem to be driven to have some of religion's explanations, to stave off anxiety; but we are all different, so it stands to reason that, if we differ in our musical tastes & in the pastimes we most appreciate, not to mention our overall approaches to life, we will gravitate towards different spiritual practices, and are not going to all be able to adopt to a single philosophy of life, as Gabmux advocates. I have pointed out to him, without result, that his championing of his non-religious path for everyone, is essentially no different from what any religious proselytizer does.

But what I had in mind, in my suggestion of the previous paragraph, is that we might share some personal stories involving spiritual pursuits; it sounds as if you've known people involved with Wicca/witchcraft-- as I have also investigated-- and/or other Occultist disciplines, if not perhaps dabbled, yourself. I realize that there is a certain degree of reticence on discussing some of these things; so I am only suggesting relating any anecdotes, with which you feel comfortable. I seem to recall you are from NY state, which has a fairly thriving pagan community, I, myself, know.

 

What good is religion?
Haven't you heard? "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes"

 

Religion is a useful tool for social control and social cohesion. It is a tool that can be used to build and can also be used to destroy. It can be used for good, or for bad.

I don't adhere to any particular religion or God belief, but I can see the value it brings to many who do, and I also think it serves as a place to keep some nasty aspects of human nature under guard, that may otherwise manifest in other ways, often as or even more destructiven than religions.

I think a lukewarm religious society that mostly ignores the religion but still has it exist is probably best, and not far off what we have now in most of the west.

 

we already have a society that ignores its moral convictions.
We have our government that is corrupt to the core, and people sell their soul for 2cents.
Great society your theory created

 

I will define "religion" as the organised business of controlling mankind's social behaviour by instructing what is "goodness" and what is "evil". I say "business" because so much religion was about money a nd power. Happily that has become less so. For example it supports equality and diversity through support for third world populations, support for migrants, support for minority interests.
Yet it was for a long time the spur to viscous rejection of anything other than doctrinal obedience. I think of the Inquisition, the routing of Catholics by Henry VIII when he created a new church so that he could divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry his Anne. He make c

 

I will define "religion" as the organised business of controlling mankind's social behaviour by instructing what is "goodness" and what is "evil". I say "business" because so much religion was about money and power. Happily that has become less so. For example it supports equality and diversity through support for third world populations, support for migrants, support for minority interests.
Yet it was for a long time the spur to viscous rejection of anything other than doctrinal obedience. I think of the Inquisition, the routing of Catholics by Henry VIII when he created a new church so that he could divorce Catherine of Aragon and marry his Anne. He murdered catholic priests and destroyed beautiful buildings, rather like terrorists do today.
The corruption between church and state for centuries would today be punishable by years in prison.

Religions around the world today are still behaving in such ways...my point being both that religion is NOT necessarily the force for good and that only recently and only within the Christian fold has it been a force for good. And that religion seems to be a follower of human rights , not a leader.

I say this because IMO it was the Holocaust which provided the impetus for our undertanding of human rights today.
AND FOR HEAVENS SAKE DONT RUN OFF THINKING IT WAS AN ADMIRABLE PERIOD IN HUMAN DEVELOPMENT.
But pre WW2/Germany's inhumanity to man, the mutual respect for humans as humans was pretty shaky. There was a lot of nationalism, ethnic superiority, racism, class division etc. Crime and punishment was pretty severe and the church never objected.
It took WW2 to change human attitude to equal rights and this was enshrined in the then new United Nations, not the religions and not the church. The UN...ie its core convention on Human Rights, is the fundamental description of the "new" religion, the new "goodness vs. evil" and it is written in law. The religions then took it up and inserted it into its own story.

I do not support the idea that religion is the eternal moral guide. It is the moral message that human experience discovers for itself.
Having said th at, I don't support shooting the messenger either. If you need explanations of how to deal with life and death, go for it. It has to be better than the bottle and millions of people have benefitted both as givers and receivers of support.

 

The key word here is "organized". Governments are "organized" religion designed specifically to control mans behavior.
Whatever personal design you have for controlling yourself is your religion, and is religion nonetheless.

 

Non sequitur -- A does not follow from B.

That both Gov't and Religion are 1) organized 2) designed to control man's behaviour - does not make Gov't a religion ... as there are things that Religion has but Gov't doesn't have .. and vice versa. ..

However - I would agree that "belief" in Gov't can be very much like belief in Religion .. which is what I think you are trying to get at.

 

Does your religion create your behavioral characteristics?

 

Some of them .. but just because folks characteristics mirror belief --- as per cog dissonance theory .. does not make everything they believe in a religion..

 

RE: What good is religion?
SUBTOPIC: Metaphysics on the concepts of Wicca and Witchcraft.
※→ DEFinning, et al,

First, let me apologize for getting back to you on this important topic. January and February have been hectic for me and I lost track of this.

I have studied Metaphysics both academically and in the real world. Witchcraft (magic working) and Wicca (wise ones) use the trappings of that which is beyond science. Both the Wiccan and Witchcraft communities (for the most part) consider themselves to be contemporary pagan-like religious followers that predate Christianity, although the terminology of Wicca is more a 20th Century derivative from the work of English scholars Alex Sanders and the American Mary Nesnick (Alexandrian High Priestess,). Most practitioners consider Gerald Gardner (New Forest Coven, England) creator of neo-Paganism You could write an entire encyclopedia just on that aspect. But for general purposes of belief, the differences are so slight it is a waste of time to consider them separately.

The "occult" is technically hidden knowledge of ancient human cultures. Some equate it to be the study of secret practices. Each has a paranormal component to them.

(COMMENT)

I think that most scholars, trying to get a handle on understanding these beliefs should begin with "Alchemy" and how it relates to the three Abrahamic Religions. This will lead you directly into the heart of the study: Noetic Scientific Study.

While I have my Doctorate in Metaphysics, my heart is really with the Noetic side of the house.



Most Respectfully,
R

 

Religion is a coping mechanism. For example, evolution creates a fear of death and intelligence creates a knowledge of death thereby setting up a mental conflict. Religion invents a life after death, therefore, allowing people to cope.

 

seems to me there is a lot more to religion than that, like not eating pork is part of a religion

 

"What good is religion?" Religion is as good as one makes it. Essentially it is to worship and give thanks, praise, honor, and glory to our great and most loyal servant, God. What else has one of any real value to give to God?

It is self evident that Parents are greater than their children. And yet they spend their lives in service to their children. Even their counsel and commandments are a service to their children for their betterment. Should we not acknowledge our Parents sacrifices for us. What price can one place on love?

Is it deception to be endeared and escaped from the confines of self importance. Odd that those steeped and sated in unbelief, would proclaim that religion is an opiate of the masses. Granted we cannot see or physically engage with the God of our higher natures. But neither can we see or engage with mankind's first Parents who are inherent in our seed and existence.

Why is it that we follow reason to everywhere but accountability? Why do people throw up science and a multitude of excuses like a cross to a vampire when propositioned with the concept of God. They hide behind the multitude of mens Gods and the evils those men do, so as to avoid any personal introduction to the truth. And then they ask, where is God, show him to me. Even though they have just run away and closed their eyes, they say they cannot see him and that it is an impossibility to know. They are afraid. So they dwell in the dark and mock. They had rather date a floozy and mock virtue than to meet virtue's Father, display their intent, and comport themselves to his discernment. And so it goes.

 

Would you agree or disagree with the statement that metaphysical is the secular version of supernatural, exactly like supernatural 'things not physical' just with a non-deity/non-divine---etc twist?

 

It is all about how humans lack the ability to get to a future. Humans can know a future only through a God who knows such a future. Religion is for a God to convey the message about such a future to all humans (false religions are local in the middle east or in India).

 

Thoughtful as always, Injeun, and I agree with you wholeheartedly that religion is only as good as one makes it.

To your observations I highlighted in bold-face, I think the problem concerning the inability on the parts of many of our fellow Westerners to perceive God involves one or both of the following:

#1) The natural and understandable human tendency to anthropomorphize God, i.e., to project the image of ourselves onto God, as if God was literally like the God in Monty Python and the Holy Grail:



You don't see that in every culture. Some Eastern religions/philosophies' concept of God is not anthropomorphic at all, and neither do those who perceive God as something - a life force, energy, whatever - that exists in everything, i.e., throughout nature or Creation, including ourselves, which brings us to

#2) The tendency, which is often a direct product of #1 cited above, to externalize God, which builds a wall of separation or detachment from God.

Again, you don't see that in many Eastern philosophies that believe in God, nor will you find it in the beliefs and teachings of some Christians, such as Francis of Assisi (and presumably his followers in the OFM), who tell people that God exists within them, not without, so if you're looking for God, you have to look inside yourself, because that is where God resides. I don't think Catholics like Francis are along in this belief - there are other groups that believe that God exists in everyone, and if I'm correct is has been expressed as the "inner light" by some. For example:

Inward light
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inward_light

Perhaps there is a third factor, depending on the individual, where Reason prevents people from perceiving and connecting with God. As you may be aware, there was a great debate during the Middle Ages where the Scholastics who subscribed to Greek Rationalism believed that Man could know and understand God through Reason, but later some, e.g., the Franciscan friar and logician William of Ockham (of Ockham's Razor fame) argued that Reason and our faculty of Reason were incapable of taking us that far. As far as that argument goes, Man can only come to an understanding of God through faith and/or revelation. If Ockham's beliefs were consistent with that of the founder of his order, I would presume that revelation wasn't necessarily synonymous with Scripture, it could come through direct personal experience, i.e., God revealing himself to an individual in some way, shape of form. If this is true, and I'm inclined to agree with Ockham on this, many people can never come to a knowledge and understanding of God because 1) they are using Reason to approach God (i.e., the wrong tool and/or approach), 2) neither scripture nor personal experience has provided them with the revelation they need to know/understand/believe and 3) they are unwilling to abandon Reason and rationality for the real or perceived irrationality of Faith.

This brings us to the eternal questions that you and others have raised concerning God and salvation, amongst them:

Assuming that a God that deals in judgement exists, does God even care?

Being fully aware of His own creation and its limitations, would God hold its shortcomings, that I presume were His by design, against us, or is God's love and grace infinite? Is God willing to forgive our weaknesses and shortcomings, including those that lead to disbelief and even an obstinacy in disbelief, or will God punish those who have not, cannot and will not find the way through faith and revelation (or even Reason)?

And who are we to say?

God's grace is God's to give, and if we believe in such a God, do we believe in God's free will, that God grants the gift of grace, and salvation, when and as He sees fit, period ?

Or is God's will not God's law? Is there some law, some rationalism, some determinism, that binds God and God's will? Or is this law, this rationalism, this determinism, a product of our own reason, arrogance and folly?



Hmmm.....

 

This doesnt really have anything to do with religion, but speaking of Gods.....
Friend of mine proposed an interesting question; What if God is something inherent to our subconscious? Something that resides there but we are not conscious of Gods existence because its beyond our reach? I dont know what God is, if I did I suppose Id be a theist. I do know that countless people all seem to know what God wants and often put words in Gods mouth, so to speak. Presently I have no answer to that.