What happens if Putin pushes into a NATO country?

Discussion in 'Security & Defenses' started by pjohns, Mar 27, 2014.

  1. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The choice is yours. I respect any religion and personal belief.
     
  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. We've been moving in troops into NATO countries like Poland over the past couple of weeks. Not many, I'll grant you, but they do provide a tripwire. If Russia was to attack any of those countries, US troops would find themselves engaged immediately. I still think when it comes to the borders of a NATO country, NATO still means something. Even Obama wouldn't be able to dodge his responsibilities as Commander in Chief.

    And of course for that reason, I don't think Putin would do anything so stupid. Not when he could go ahead and take Eastern Ukraine without worrying about any Western reaction other than "sanctions."
     
  3. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    This is a big downside about defense treaties like NATO. They only come into effect if the country involved is actually a member.

    In this case, the Ukraine is not a member of NATO. So unless it asks for help, there is not a damned thing that NATO can do except sit back and watch.

    Well, other then put it's own members on alert and let whoever the bully know that there is a line they can not cross.

    I think what worries me most right now is that after 20 years, I see a new Cold War developing.
     
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I don't really see that as a downside. I think by making it clearer who we are obligated to help and who we are under no obligation to help, it makes the calculus on taking on another country much clearer. It seems clear to me that NATO has been a source of stability in Europe. Without it I suspect the Soviets would have either nibbled away or successfully intimidated all of Europe. That's why so many former east bloc countries made a bee line to join NATO after the wall fell. Those that dragged their feet, well...
     
  5. william walker

    william walker New Member

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    Why would the Russians attack a NATO member they have other means to manipule the countries into doing what they want.

    Russia doesn't even have to take military action in Ukraine beyond what it is doing already using ex Russian military to take over government buildings in the East of the country. This is why to weaken the Ukrainian government mandate and force the Ukrainians to take military action which will mean not the Russians sending in air strikes and ground forces, but weapons so the people who joint the Russian people can defend themselves. If it gets really bad and the Ukranian government doesn't change its policy then the Russians will move in a more meaningful manner including shutting off energy. They can't allow Ukranian to become part of the EU or NATO or even just pro-West, they will do everything they can to stop it and unless the West is willing to do the same to help Ukranian the Russians will so it.

    I believe the US, Poland, Baltic state might be willing to go that far. However the rest of the Europeans and Turkey can't go that far because of what Russia can do it them as in make them freeze and cause great economic problems for them. Many people including myself see Russia as the major European power and that it should have a sphere of influence from Finland to south caucasus.
     
  6. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    There is a difference between upside and downside, and good and bad. I am making no judgment call here, simply stating things as I see them.

    However, part of the downside is that they subjugate yet another country, with really nothing being said about it. And we all know that the UN will not to a damned thing about it.
     
  7. axialturban

    axialturban Well-Known Member

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    I always thought the Ukraine was waiting for the Russian's to move their Black Sea Fleet HQ out of Crimea before joining NATO, but Russia wrestled control of Ukraine with pro-Russian parties and cancelled interest to join NATO while resigning a long lease for Russia to continue to use the Crimea facilities. Hence why when the Ukraine chose a pro-Western position Putin shat himself and secured Crimea. I think the current stuff is him just seeing what he can get away with, at the expense of the Ukrainian people.

    Either way, the Ukraine should try and join NATO immediately and have its membership fast tracked... I wonder if that would make Putin reconsider!
     
  8. william walker

    william walker New Member

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    It makes no difference now the Russians don't have to take military action. The US and NATO rapping up isn't helping it is like they don't have a clue what Putin and the Russians want. The Russian will stop their actions when Ukraine joins the Russian oh sorry Eurasian Union. I mean what interest does the EU have in Ukranian other than annoying the Russians. Then people are shocked when the Russians react the way they do. I just don't get it, I really don't. I do find it alaming from a UK influence and power point of view that we weren't involved in the EU's removal of the Ukranian President, rather it was France, Germany and Poland, very worry if the UK is now the 4th most important country in the EU where once we were the second most important. Time for the UK to leave I think for our own sake.

    As for the Russian military actions in Crimea they was really aimed at Turkey to prove that Russia does and will continue to control the Black sea. I am sure the Russians would want to take Constantinople and East Thrace if they could.
     
  9. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Eh... with or without NATO, there is no mechanism to stop that. NATO is only responsible for NATO, and the US is really only responsible for those nations that we have treaty obligations with.
     
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    In that I agree. But NATO also tends to have become a major responder to UN requests for aid. ANd if not NATO itself, many nations in NATO tend to respond.
     

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