What is all this Impeachment about...

I think there is a lot of people (especially among Trump supporters) who, in my opinion, are not grasping what is at stake here. Why Trump is being impeached. And how the final outcome of all this will impact this country. Both from a political view, as well as on the essence itself of the Republic (if we can keep it)

I'll leave the latter alone for now. And focus on the former.

I think it's pretty clear that Democrats will approve Articles of Impeachment for Trump (whatever those may be) and send the case to the Senate for trial.

This is the part where, I believe, most people (again: especially on the right) are confused. This is not about removing Trump. Understand this: removing Trump is not up to Democrats. It's up to Republicans. Republicans in the Senate are the only ones who will decide if Trump is removed or not. Twenty Republican votes would bee needed. But nothing about what Democrats are doing now is meant to convince Republican Senators. They already know that Trump is guilty of more than enough crimes and high crimes to warrant removal. That's not the issue.

The issue is convincing the majority of the American People. Not Senators, not anybody in Congress. Definitely not anybody here on this forum...

I think that in order for Republican Senators to vote Trump out Democrats would have to convince a considerable majority of Americans. I venture to say that they would need to convince at least 80% of Americans. Less than that, and the 20 Republican votes will not be there.

So, all this talk on the right about whether Trump actually demanded bribery from Z, or if he ordered Sondeland, or Giuliani or.... or if the evidence is first hand, second hand, hearsay... none of that matters.

The one and only thing that matters is if most Americans end up convinced that Trump abused his power for political gain. That's all!

So, will Americans become convinced that Trump did not abuse power because... they didn't hear from the whistleblower directly?... Because of the dossier, or because Jim Jordan can scream louder than anybody in his screechy voice?

I doubt it!

They will come to their conclusion because of actual evidence. By the fact that all witnesses (including those called for by Republicans) came to the same conclusion. Because they hear the testimony. Because they can see that it's Trump who is stonewalling the investigation. Because Republicans have not bothered to address the facts, and only criticize the process as they loudly bang the table. Because they see Trump lie every day.

I doubt Republicans Senators will vote to remove Trump. And, even though that will undermine our Constitutionality, it will be politically beneficial for Democrats. Voters will be enraged. And it will solve the one problem Democrats have never been able to solve: how to increase voter turnout.

Not understanding this will spell the demise of the Republican Party for at least a generation.

 

What it's all about is protecting the elites and their gravytrains. Trump is a threat to them.

 

Trump is the elite. Literally. I mean, he... all by himself is the elite that he is trying to protect. Everybody else be damned.

But I don't think you got the point. That may or may not be "the reason". I'm not talking about that.

I'm explaining what the political strategy is Let's put is simpler:

While the strategy that House Democrats are carrying out is to convince the American People that Trump is guilty, The House Republican strategy is to convince Trump and themselves, that Trump is not guilty.

And this is why Democrats, one way or another (if not in the Senate hearings, in the November elections) will end up on top. Unless Republicans radically change their strategy.

 

Sounds like it's not going so well over there huh.

 

if that is the strategy, it ain't working. It takes more than a poll. It requires an election in which Trump has a pronounced advantage because of the electoral college. Being from a red state, most residents are looking upon this whole mess as a charade.

 

"Trump is the elite."

And you can tell this, how? By the fact that most of government and media oppose him?

What kind of elite is that?

They oppose him for one reason; his promise to drain the swamp that feeds the political elites.

 

I'm not sure about sending it to the senate, but if you think this is about convincing Americans that Trump needs to go, then I'd simply say that they're not doing a very good job at it. Most of the democrats come across as really weird people, at least to me, and I wouldn't trust a one of them to sell me a slurpee at 7-11.

 

Also, I doubt that the American people are going to look favorably on a congress who has spent this much time on getting a president defeated at the polls. We elect and pay our legislatures to legislate, not perform political hack jobs. It would appear that the OP would realize that this is a true abuse of power.

 

In the event the OP has missed my point, he is accusing the democrats of committing a massive fraud against the US. Their intent is not to remove the president using powers granted to them by the Constitution, but rather by campaigning against him while the legislature is in session and knowingly making the media part of the effort. . I would think that someone who claims to be so intelligent would realize what he just did.

 

All but 2 house Democrats pissing on Trump.. that's what it's about.

 

This is so funny I spit my Pepsi all over my screen. Trump is no elite? OMG. Let's take that one apart. Trump is a billionaire with his own 757 and helicopter. Trump has had three wives (or is it four?). Trump hangs out with other billionaires and celebrities. Trump loves to lay porn queens, movie stars, teen age models and any loose animals. Trump gave a huge tax cut to millionaires a billionaires while the middle class got table scraps, soon to be wrenched from their mouths. Trump's office is a monument to Trump (friends have been there). Trump lies more times in one day than most people lie in a lifetime. Trump's little Florida nest costs $200,000 to join.

Trump wouldn't spit on his rally fans if they were on fire.

 

No. By the fact that he demands loyalty to himself before loyalty to the nation. And that that is exactly what his core followers, his lackeys and Republicans in Congress who care more about being re-elected than about their oath to protect the laws and the Constitution, give him.

 

This impeachment is about the IG report that democrats think is going to implicate a lot of the people the democrats have been lauding as wonderful people. That's why the democrats have been calling everybody who testified holier than God almighty. It's about making it seem like the IG report is calling mother Theresa a whore.

See, unlike the democrats who only control the house, the republicans own the executive branch, the senate, and the judicial, and there are tons of laws that have been broken. It won't be an impeachment inquiry, but handcuffs will be involved, and there will be no democrats on the jury.

 

He is no elite, he is a blue collar worker who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, how many times has people reminded us he has the vocabulary of a 3rd grader?

 

The pot calling the kettle black? How many Democrats broke rank and voted against Obamacare and in sequence got wiped off the map

 

Are you serious?
This impeachment did not produce a single document produced by Trump that demanded investigation from Ukraine in exchange of aid, nor did it produce a single witness who personally heard Trump saying that.
All you got is a bunch of people giving testimonies about their guesses and assumptions. These witnesses would be kicked out of the court room in real court of law!
This impeachment is the biggest embarrassment to Congress in the whole history of this country. I can’t see how rational people wouldn’t see this for what it is - a bunch of never Trumpers getting together, making up false accusations and inviting people as witnesses to voice their opinions, guesses and assumptions as real witness testimony.
Do you really think democrats will survive 2020 after this sham?

 

Excellent post, bravo, and, of course, most of Trump's fans can't understand it.

I believe your analysis above is correct. If a super majority of Americans are not convinced that Trump should be removed from office, impeachment will fail and next November the Democrats will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

If impeachment fails, there is a very good chance we will have another four years of Trump and, given Trump's affinity for Putin and Russia, that could prove disastrous for the U.S.

Which, of course, is one hell of a reason why the Democratic leadership may pass on Articles of Impeachment if they don't have that super majority. If that happens, they should be honest with Americans. Despite the overwhelming evidence of high crimes, obstruction of justice, and bribery, they did not impeach Trump because they did not have the support of Republicans who would exonerate Trump.

Elections are won that way, and, in that way, Trump would be removed from office -- the whole purpose of impeachment.

 

I don't know. What the hell does that have to do with what I wrote?

The American People demand loyalty to them. As it should be. Any politician who is not loyal to the American People (i.e. the Constitution) should be wiped off the map by the American People.

 

That is truly the dumbest defense I have ever heard and it has been prominent in the Republican defense of Trump in the hearings. This defense assumes Trump is stupid.

But Trump is not stupid. Trump would not put to paper a request for foreign interference in our Presidential election to benefit his reelection chances. Trump is not about to come out and tell Sondland or Pompeo or Mulvaney or anyone, "I need Ukraine's help investigating the 2016 election and the Bidens and I am going to use bribery on Zelensky."

Trump is smarter than that. Give him some credit.

You obviously are unfamiliar with the testimony. As Sondland said, everyone was in the loop, meaning everyone knew exactly what Trump wanted. It didn't have to spelled out or put to paper.

 

Would you convict someone of a crime if you had no direct witnesses and no documentation? What would you think if our criminal justice system worked that way?

It’s pretty obvious that you are the one who is behind on news.

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/4254300002

This impeachment is a sham and partisan hacks don’t even bother to read the details. You have no real witnesses and no real proof. I honestly hope majority of Americans can read past headlines.

 

Who is the American people? Describe them , illegals above the law?

 

Except none of the witnesses had heard from trump that this is what he wants. I would even agree with you that Trump wanted Burisma investigated. It's just that this hasn't been proved. Nobody can say anything about that except witnesses who heard from others, and we've heard from the others, and they said they were working from assumption.

Personally, I think this is just Trump being a better politician than I would be. I would have asked straight up to get me investigations into the Biden connection, and everybody would know I was using tax payer money to investigate my political allies.

So what? Americans don't care about that.

 

Well, you have that completely wrong. Trump is the only politician to be extremely wealthy before taking office. The Clintons, Obama, Pelosi, Warren, Sanders, especially the Bidens and all the rest of the deep blue conspiracy theorist politicians all became multi millionaires after taking office and that's pretty hard to do on just a politician's salary.

Do you know that the #1 contributor to the Clinton Foundation was Ukraine? Since the '16 election results the Clinton Foundation is only receiving 10% of its usual donations. I suppose when you're not the President or the Secretary of State you can't "quid pro quo" to your contributors.

A charitable foundation folds!
By Curtis Dahlgren
June 29, 2019


Have you wondered why the Clinton Foundation folded so suddenly after Hillary was no longer in a position of influence? Perhaps this summary will provide some insight?

From their 2014 990 Tax Form: they list 486 employees (line 5)!

It took 486 people who are paid $34.8 million, and $91.3 million in fees and expenses, to give away $5.1 MILLION

The real heart of the Clintons can be seen here. Staggering but not surprising. These figures are from an official copy of the Bill, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton Foundation for the tax year 2014. The copy of the tax return is from the National Center for Charitable Statistics web site http://nccs.urban.org/ You can obtain the latest tax return on any charitable organization there.

The Clinton Foundation: number of employees (line 5) 486

Total revenue (line 12): $177,804,612.00

Total grants to charity (line 13): $5,160,385.00 (this is less than 3%)

Total expenses: $91,281,145.00

Expenses include:

Salaries (line 15): $34,838,106.00

Fund raising fees (line 16a): $850,803.00

Other expenses (line 17): $50,431,851.00 HUH??????

Travel: $8,000,000.00

Note: $20 million in travel & meetings to decide who gets the $5.160 million in charity?

Meetings: $12,000,000.00

Net assets/fund balances (line 22) $332,471,349.00.... So it required 486 people, who were paid $34.8 million, plus $91.3 million in fees and expenses, to give away $5.1 MILLION!

And they call this a CHARITY?

(It is alleged that this is one of the greatest white-collar crimes ever committed. And just think –

one of the participants was a former president and one (gasp!) wanted to be elected president.

If justice was truly served, they would both be in prison.

(Wonder who the "employees" were? They only had one kid.)

© Curtis Dahlgren

 

It didn't produce a videotape of Trump pounding President Z's desk and demanding that he made a declaration that Biden is a criminal either. So what? It produced enough evidence for any American who is not sure if Trump should be removed or not (that doesn't include either you or me) to look at and make up their own mind as to whether Trump abused power. And it produced exactly zero evidence to the contrary, because... well... because Republicans didn't even bother to look for any, I guess.

You obviously didn't read the OP. Because this was the point.

 

I stopped reading when I came across your statement that the lack of first hand witnesses or documentation is not important.
Because it is. You accuse someone of something - you better be able to prove it. By relying on assumptions and guesses the democrats are making arses out of themselves.
Impeachment is about high crimes and misdemeanors. Those generally require proof beyond the reasonable doubt. What this impeachment process produced is nothing. At least Bill Clinton admitted himself to getting that BJ and there was that dress with evidence. What do the Dems have now? Guesses and assumptions? Ha!