What Is The Argument Against Slavery?

Felt. Key word: FELT. The cool thing about logic is it lets you double-check your preconceptions.

 

For centuries God was used to justify slavery...

 

It is the God of collective religion over the millennia. The entire idea of religion is to set up a moral framework that individuals can attempt to live up to. Time has proven that if you leave it up to individuals, the outcome is not so great. Man needs something higher than himself to keep him on the straight and narrow. Makes sense, doesn't it?

 

Those religions are mutually contradictory, not "collective."

Then why have they all failed?

And the same goes if you leave it up to religion.

Yet appealing to such "something higher" is one of the most common excuses for atrocities. You said that reason and compassion can't be the foundations for morality because there have been instances where those have failed . . . which means we have to say the same thing about religion.

 

I am sure that is correct, but after several thousands of years, it appears as if having a higher moral authority works better with us human beings. We need an ideal to live up to [just like in every other aspect of our lives].

 

Lying to oneself is possible. That is, after all, why theism exists. It's also possible to be intelligent, but logically wrong about something. So why do we need a moral society? So that people can function synergistically to make things that improve everybody's life. If we all have to worry about somebody exploiting, robbing, or killing us all the time, our productivity is decreased. If our productivity is decreased, the quality of life for everybody goes down. People will of course want to cheat the system to get more just for themselves, and that's why we set up a society that doesn't tolerate that. With improvements in technology, it also gets harder to get away with things, making the moral course even more logical for the individual. History is indeed messy, and full of people being illogical.

 

Hierarchy and social control has its upside and downside.

 

There are lots of bad actors out there who do what they do, but again, look at what happened when you took God completely out of the equation [USSR and China]...slaughter in the midst of civil society.

Don't look at religion as a practical ideal. It is there for people to try to uphold individually. Like I always say, get more than two adults together in the same space and WATCH OUT!

 

So the same thing that happened when we put God completely into the equation. Now you get it.

So just like reason and compassion but with more downsides. Not an attractive pitch.

 

I would argue the opposite. The corruption that has defined the past fifty years is pretty epic. Lots of ways to disguise it.

Religion has been around forever. You ever wonder why?

 

You would equate the West to the USSR, China, and Nazi Germany in the 20th century?

I am not a religious person, but I am able to see how it has helped. Not everything you disagree with is all bad. Do you know how many people have actually been helped by religion over time? No other institution even comes close.

Wasn't the underground railroad in the South organized by churches?

 

Exactly. It's all about finding the balance. If it's not working, then it's out of balance [by definition].

 

Reading fail.

Not as many people as who have been helped by basic reason and compassion. But that, again, is the hypocrisy of your position. You want to credit religion, despite how many people religion as hurt, and you don't demand perfection from religion, but you demand perfection of outcome from those who appeal to reason and compassion. Your entire argument is based on dramatic inconsistencies.

 

Nazi Germany had God front and centre, written right on their belt buckles. Gott Mit Uns wasn't a reminder to keep the soldier's hands warm.

And how many have been hurt by it over time?

 

New challenge for you @impermanence : Can you explain, without appealing to reason, logic, or compassion, why religion is morally superior to reason, logic, and compassion?

 

You misinterpreted me. I am saying that man is MUCH better off using a higher authority as his guide [one that cannot be corrupted by his own self-interest]. IOW, when you are facing a critical decision the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other], who do you listen to, your self-interest [no matter the collateral damage] or doing the right thing?

 

It isn't. But it is a form of social control; self monitoring to keep people in line with the prescribed societal norms. That can have it's upside, as well as it's downside. It also is a big source of social cohesion and ingroup bonding, and outgroup shunning.

 

I should walk back what I said about God not having a role in ending Slavery. Certainly there is enough support in scripture to say that the Bible presents the idea that all men are equal and definitely religious groups were part of the anti-slavery movement in the British Empire.

 

Life is not an all or none deal. That's the problem with your Utopianism, it must be all or none. It's the best hope for man [maybe it's 55-45, but it's a hell of a lot better than taking God out, which is probably 99-1].

 

And the Bible also repeatedly supports slavery and says that God has, upon occasion, outright commanded it. The Bible was always iffy on what it meant by "equal."

 

Reason are compassion are better guides for doing the right thing, and the real angel on our shoulders, than scriptures are.

 

I am not saying that you should not use your intelligence, but the key is knowing its limits. Beyond that, it has to do with human nature. You might believe that man [left to his own devices] will do the right thing, but history has not shown this to be the case.

 

True. The Bible, and religion generally, can be used to support pretty much anything you want to push onto others, up or down, left or right, good or bad.

 

How, without appealing to logic or reason, do you come to know the limits of religion? You might believe that religion always leads man to do the right thing, but history has not shown this to be the case. And you haven't explained, apart from reason and logic, how you even determine what the right thing is.

 

For your own education, you should read [or re-read] some of the world's great religious writings. The entire Buddhist religion is about doing the right thing [by yourself and others]. There is very little I've seen that is not pretty compassionate.