What "Race" ?

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by NYCmitch25, Feb 11, 2013.

  1. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Me thinks you are right, we are in agreement. The slippery slop you pointed out makes perfect sense. And generally I try to not apply the profile too liberally when practical, because it has been pointed out that one can be wrong when using a profile. And I'll own up to it, I have been wrong before but thankfully the way I choose to apply my knowledge of the profile is not by being hostile to another.

    It is a strange world we live in. The Zimmerman trial is a clear cut case of self defense and it has been inflamed out of both context and proportion by the usual suspects who profit from racism. It is a dark world we live in.
     
  2. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    Yes. I understand your point, and it is a good one !


    PS> Well, if you were Zimmerman, would you plead out or go to trial ? I mean, if he is fully innocent, what is his answer for rushing the kid ? Is it legal to do that? Or do think the kid went after him? Note, the police believe that Z decided to play cop. Though my point is that if he didn't have such a skewed "need" to do it, maybe he wouldn't have acted in such a way. Right or Wrong is actions were not warranted.
     
  3. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    ah yes the science disagrees with your established belief so it must be a conspiracy at work, it couldn't possibly be that your just wrong, wrong in regards to a topic(DNA)that you admit you know nothing...talk about hubris...

    the physical differences between those equine are no greater than found in man yet they are clearly not the same species, man with as much physical diversity has no reproduction issues like the equine species...


    ah ya you did, you were going to kick more sand on my head as I recall...

    they're South east asians, their closest relatives may be the Ainu of Japan...they left africa (as we all did) 70,000 yrs ago, modern europeans have more genetically in common with africans than they do...for decades it was assumed they were africans, DNA ended that line of thought...

    I live with an archeologist(daughter)who has done forensics, you are wrong...physical appearance is superficial, DNA/genetics is definitive, we are all one specie, there are no races or breeds, we are all africans and ultimately we are all related...
     
  4. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    To my humble understanding of the law, a citizen can use 'citizen's arrest' on another citizen if they are committing a crime. The people are the supreme rule of law in this country, something most do not understand. I personally think people are afraid of their own power, and the government is absolutely terrified of it as well, although you'd never know based off of their actions.

    The pictures of Zimmerman's face and head show obvious signs of trouble and physical distress, then the information finally leaked out the Trayvon was taking martial arts classes and what not. Trayvon was not some innocent callow youth as the media painted him out to be. They only show an outdated picture from years ago to distort the public eye of him in an attempt to make him look like the victim.

    Should Zimmerman have waited until he actually tried to break and enter? I am only slightly conflicted about his. People say he shouldn't have caused a confrontation - what makes it so holy and justified when a police officer does the same thing? Does his badge bestow magical powers that we mere mortals cannot attain? No, it is a piece of tin that was pressed into shape and grants no authority whatsoever. In the end the police officer does the same damn things we all should naturally do - confront evil and lawlessness.

    If a guy is prowling my neighborhood who I know doesn't belong there you can guarantee I would follow him and confront him if needed. I'd call the cops, but I won't wait for them to arrive if he starts lighting someone's house on fire, or stealing stuff either. Tolerating evil promotes it.

    Zimmerman did the right thing. Trayvon decided to get physical, and picked the wrong target. Now he is pushing up daisies. Sucks to be him, but it sucks to be a criminal regardless of race.

    Now there are those with a hero/savior complex which need to be dealt with. Those types that start fires and report them, so they can then assist in putting them out. Those need to be dealt with. I don't think this is one of those cases. Trayvon was not exactly innocent here. He was displaying the picture perfect profile of attempted burglary, his only problem was a neighborhood watch doing its job. And he got killed while attacking the watchmen.

    Sad that he is killed, dead men learn nothing. Sadly, nobody seems to have learned a damn thing since his death.
     
  5. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Generally speaking, admitting you are not all knowing is a sign of humility. If this confuses you, it is not my problem.

    I never stated there were reproductive difficulties.

    All humans carry a great deal of common DNA, I never disputed this. I only said there were differences. Sub-races spawn from parent races. This is not a massive concept to grasp.

    Same specie yes, something I didn't dispute. Breed/race/convenient term of taxonomy? Well obviously there are. Obviously we are all related - we're all humans. Der...

    As for your daughter, you say she can determine race by genetics? Because the skull shapes, brain sizes and such are different. There are slight skeletal differences, and nervous system differences as well. She might just be wrong too, or lying, or inept, or simply taught the company line, or she could even be right, who knows? The possibilities are endless. I am not all knowing. But this is a topic in which one could be perfectly right or dead wrong and it wouldn't matter. The opposition would never yield. So why try?

    Surely she could cough up a fantastic and unbiased source of knowledge proving her being right. Yes?

    You seem awfully bent on trying to convince me that race doesn't exist. It would be equally stupid of me to try to convince you that gravity doesn't exist - especially when it is in plain sight. Race/breed/whatever, is more than simply skin color.
     
  6. NYCmitch25

    NYCmitch25 New Member

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    Interesting comments, however I don't believe Zimmerman's point of view fully. It just doesn't add up to why he felt the need to engage this kid, and his aggressive behavior may have resulted in a natural fight response in the kid. I think Z was shaded by notions of protecting his community and I don't see him talking himself out of a lot of his actions. Who knows, I don't know all of the details of what he is charged with etc. because I don't really follow pop news.
     
  7. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    At this point, I don't think anybody but God will ever know what really happened. Too many interested parties wanting particular outcomes. Humans have limits in deducing justice, it appears we have reached it in this case.

    But not following pop news, or MSM unless absolutely necessary is probably one of the best decisions of my entire life.
     
  8. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    doubting the knowledge of experts without any of your own, then attributing the expert opinion to deliberate conspiracy because it disagree with your casual observations...sorry that goes well beyond hubris


    if there are no reproductive issues then there is only one specie...


    this shouldn't be difficult to grasp, there are no sub-species of homo sapien sapien, just a single specie..."races" is an invented term it has no basis in biology...what you are claiming is family resemblance constitutes a sub-specie, various ethnic groups look alike because they are, they're closely related family not a sub-specie or breed..geographically isolated groups look alike because of small original population, environmental influences and sexual selection...outward physical appearance alone does determine a sub-specie,

    breed/race don't exist in taxonomy please show me below where it says sub-specie, race, breed..black/ oriental/ white etc
     
  9. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Than why is it done successfully with dogs? If I walk in and buy a a golden retriever, and the guy gives me a great dane, I am not going to thank him. I am going to want my golden retriever. Sure, they are both dogs, and can breed with each other, but they are WAY different. The same applies to humans as well. I don't see what the big hang up is on your end.

    Science is blind yes, having no agenda. The people who see the results very well might. And really, I can identify bones blindfolded, fragments would take more effort mind you, but could easily be done. An anatomy class is not that complicated.

    Scientific 'fact' is only a collection of observations that most people agree on that have yet to be disproved. And disproving things happen all the time. Although it is becoming less common.

    See reference to dogs. But let me make something clear, I never excused racism, nor do I practice it. But it would probably be better if we enumerated what exactly 'racism' is before you go and say the existence of 'race/breed' is the cause of it all.
     
  10. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Have you had a 400 level anatomy class?

    The only way you will hear a scientist use the word "fact' will be in a setting like"it is a fact that this is my data".
    Disproving a hypothesis based on some data is common as dirt. The data itself (facts) doesnt get disproved unless maybe it was sloppy work.

    Theories that has lasted till now are for sure not as easy to disprove as the old
    flys-from-rotten- meat theory, or phlogiston.





    Racism isnt cool But it doesnt hurt to understand it has roots deeper than culture.

    You could try the painted bird experiment if you are feeling cruel.
     
  11. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Not yet, I have to though for my degree. I had both the the prerequisite A&P classes. I'm taking the 400's either next semester or the semester after. But bones were covered quite well.

    And in that instance it would be true as well. Whether or not it is honest data is another matter entirely.

    Agreed, and that is why I am boggled by those who keep trying to tell me it doesn't exist. But do explain the painted bird experiment, never heard of it.
     
  12. Jackster

    Jackster New Member

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    If there are no differences how do we explain DNA differences? Of course theres difference and one only needs to look at human behavior how people of the same race (agree breed is probably a better term, but for humans we use the word race) tend to prefer to be around each other. Theres definitely demographic patterns, IQ patterns and various other things.

    Im no expert on DNA or biology, far from it, but if the experts says theres difference and can pick it with a very high degree of certainty then perhaps they're right - there is difference. We know there doesnt need much difference for there to be major difference, they say theres on 4% difference in DNA between humans and chimps.
     
  13. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    [
    Be sure to take comparative vertebrate anatomy!


    aww ya think? even in medical research and paychology? :D



    The other birds will see it is different and attack it. Think about the implications of that!

    (what's your career plan?)
     
  14. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    Not sure they have that class here. They do have advanced human anatomy for 5 credits though. Basically dissecting cadavers and such from what I hear. Dreadful smell, but you get used to it I suspect.

    Possibly the two most corrupted fields. Psychology(which I am currently taking) is probably the most bull(*)(*)(*)(*) ridden pseudoscience ever devised. There are some legitimate findings here and there, but I think they would be best lumped together with neurology as they are neurological in nature.

    Sucks to be that bird I guess.

    My fiendish plot for the future? Become a chiropractor, possibly a DO. Not entirely sure yet.
     
  15. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    breed is not a scientific term either, like race it's a social construct...what you refer to as a breed is nothing more than incest/inbreeding, no different than taking a family of redheads and breeding them only with each other, it won't take long until they all look alike, restricted sexual selection....

    "race/breed" IS the cause of it all, insisting there are differences when there are none...insisting there differences in people because of their skin tone is a ridiculous as saying there differences between blue eyed and green eyed, blonde and redhead, the entire concept is ludicrous...
     
  16. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    ever have chickens ? I have and different colours as well they had no issues with odd coloured members, nor did the tropical parrots I raised, white, grey, pied, blue, green whatever they never had an issue with colour differences...
     
  17. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    that's purely cultural based on centuries of racism...if you treat a group of people with contempt holding them to different standards of justice and in perpetual poverty animosities between the groups are inevitable, there is no biological reason for it...the same divisions can occur within any homogenous population, social stratification due to status of wealth or class not colour...


    DNA doesn't identify race, it identifies haplogroups/clans/families/heritage...

    I posted this image earlier in the thread would Tony Frudakis the molecular biologist place them in a "black" race? he wouldn't...the people who would do that are the uninformed who insist on racial definitions, the people in the photo are not africans, white europeans are more closely related to modern africans than they are...what Tony Frudakis would classify them as is being members of Haplogroup- D-M174 which means they are related to the Ainu of Japan and share DNA found in other asian populations including the Han of china...
    View attachment 18152
     
  18. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Sure, didnt say it applies to all birds, some flocking birds, it does.

    And no this big city type never raised chickens.
     
  19. Casper

    Casper Banned at Members Request Past Donor

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    I do not know if anyone has mentioned this, I have not read through the entire thread yet, this was also run as a series on PBS and was an excellent show and availabe on their website. It is one of best factual history tools I have ever seen that debunks the stupidity of some of my fellow whites that claim we are somehow more advanced and smarter due to the color of the skin we happed to be born with. Excellent Thread, there should be more such threads here, maybe a handfull of people will actually learn something.
     
  20. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    You forgot personal preference. It is true in some cases that it is a lack of options. However even when there are options people tend to pick their own.

    I do find it amusing that you keep calling it a construct though, a social one at that. Why is this "social construct" as you call it based off of a biological one then? And is it possible people go by taxonomic terminology that goes beyond the scientific? Just because it isn't used by scientists does not mean it does not exist.

    Are you telling me you cannot tell the difference between these two?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    You can find gravity equally ludicrous, and still be wrong. Sorry there chief, it must be hard living in reality when you aren't used to it. But I do find that when you list of a group of differences, and then say there aren't any quite amusing. You're providing great source material for all manner of future comedies.
     
  21. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    article-2244438-16649DBF000005DC-488_634x424.jpg

    Are you telling me you cannot tell the difference?
     
  22. Gemini_Fyre

    Gemini_Fyre New Member

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    I dare say they all look different. Surely my eyes although corrected with lenses are not that bad.
     
  23. wyly

    wyly Well-Known Member

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    did I forget "personal preference" nope I quite clearly mentioned sexual selection ...

    no they don't, without even knowing it females choose or reject their future partner by smell/pheromones they're not even aware of, they choose the partner who smells least like them, there are other visual attractions but the mate still needs to pass the smell test....in cultures that lack the US racial prejudices mixing of skin colour is a non issue...in fact if females choose only mates like them we would all look the same, but they don't they choose those who are unique/different... blue eyes are a recessive trait, all blue eyed people are related and share a common ancestor, the first blue eyed child born to a brown eyed group surely should've been rejected by the group but no those blue eyes would've made him/her unique in a population of brown eyes and that ensured the retention of the blue eye gene...

    if it doesn't exist in science, it doesn't exist...it's invented/fantasy, a social construct no basis in science or reality...


    can you tell me the difference between these four? very distinct colouration hey they must be different breeds right? CockatielVarietiesWBCk_P1637.jpg nope, all the same species and they don't care they're different they happily boink each other....
    or how about these dogs all Labrador Retrievers different colours surely they must be all different breeds.. labrador_retreiver.jpg nope, in fact they're just Canis lupus familiaris that have been forcibly inbred by man, they are in fact the same as any other mutt...and if they the females were allowed to choose their own mate from other dogs the common family look would disappear within a generation they will choose the mate least like them genetically

    back to these people View attachment 18176 and their genetic relatives 3500Tonkari11.jpg notice they're not african either

    or these african/nigerian families with no european heritage SNN2215AA-280_1090122a.jpg Nigerian-white.jpg and neither of those kids is an albino, what nonexistent taxonomy classification (sub-species/race/breed) do you assign those kids to ...






    the irony here is I don't don't deny gravity but you do, the "gravity" being discussed here is genetics, an established science that verifies there are no breeds/races/sub-species which you resist for reasons of ingrained cultural social prejudice... there are no sub-species/races/ breeds of sapiens, there is only a single Homo Sapien Sapien...
     
  24. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    And what is the "difference", since they all come from the same mother?
     
  25. taikoo

    taikoo Banned

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    Psst...! Please! Homo sapiens sapiens
     

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