What should be subsidized besides health care?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Le Chef, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Maybe nothing. You said the only legitimate rights are negative rights.

    You just admitted that you were wrong. ;)
     
  2. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Did I? I don't think so. The only legitimate rights are negative rights. The right to not have one's person or property violated without a speedy and public trial is a negative right.
     
  3. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
  4. HereWeGoAgain

    HereWeGoAgain Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2016
    Messages:
    27,942
    Likes Received:
    19,979
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No, a speedy trial, and an impartial trial, are positive rights. Don't play childish games to cover your false logic.

    Your right to a trial is costing me money!!! This must be stopped.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  5. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    They are restrictions on the state. They are not positive rights. They do not require the violation of anyone else's rights. They are not positive rights.
     
  6. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,498
    Likes Received:
    18,630
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You don't have to fund it. All you have to do is pay your taxes. We elect people to Congress. They make laws, and allocate those taxes according to the mandate given by those who elected them.. If the mandate given by the electorate is to pay for the guy's heart transplant, that's what they have to do. It's not their choice. It's the choice of those who elected them.

    Nowhere in the Constitution or in any law does it say that you get to decide where your own taxes go. The only thing written is that we collectively decide where all taxes go in a Democratic election. So the government doesn't decide. We decide collectively.

    That's how it works.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  7. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Doesn't paying taxes fund it?
     
  8. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2016
    Messages:
    42,498
    Likes Received:
    18,630
    Trophy Points:
    113

    I'm not sure what the problem is with this, though it seems specious. I think the problem is the leap from "health care for all is good for society, therefore everyone has to pay for it."[/QUOTE]
    I'm not making any of this up. This is Ethics and Morals based primarily on Immanuel Kant (basic definitions, mainly), later Jose Ortega y Gasett, Bertrand Russel, Bernard Williams... and others.

    Question is: does X action promote or oppose the existence of the community of human beings. If it favors the existence of the community, it is morally "good". If it opposes it, it's morally "bad". Nobody would want to live in a community where stealing or killing is ethically acceptable. So if those things were acceptable, the community would disperse. Which threatens the existence (or cohesion) of the community of human beings. So they go into the "morally bad" column.

    If not all people in a community can have healthcare, what is the alternative? Let them die if they become sick? Do you think that would favor or oppose the existence of the community of human beings? How many would like to live in a community that just leave people who can't afford healthcare to die?

    There have been violent bloody dictatorships in the past that have "worked" for decades "imperfectly" (and without medicare). But that's not we want. We want liberty, justice, ... in short... we want "a more perfect union". For that we need social cohesion. A society based on morals.

    It's not just a matter of receiving healthcare. It's a matter of receiving proper healthcare. In the end there is not that much of a difference between being left to die out on the street, and being left to die in a tent hospital in the richest country in the world. Especially when the only excuse to do this is to protect the profits of insurance corporations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  9. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Perhaps killing those accused of witchcraft promotes the existence of the community of human beings.
     
  10. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    All people can have healthcare. Oh...wait. No. The state prohibits that. People are forbidden from providing healthcare by the state. That's pretty sick and evil, in my opinion.
     
    Le Chef likes this.
  11. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Don't be dramatic ... these aren't the middle ages. People CAN all have health care, to a certain extent. Certainly mine is better -- or maybe worse -- than yours, but there are not significant numbers of people prematurely dying in the street, other than the homeless, perhaps, and I'm not even sure about them.

    There are hundreds of free clinics in the USA, plus government paid Medicaid and Medicare (which is abused by many retirees, by the way). Google St. Judes and the Shriners.

    Maybe you'd have more free care, maybe I'd have less, but we don't need a complete government take over to address the issue.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  12. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hell, it's 20 + trillion in debt, last I checked.

    Where did you get this "richest country in the world" nonsense from?
     
    Le Chef and Longshot like this.
  13. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If you really want liberty, leave people alone. This is what the OP is about. You have all these programs in mind for your vision of the betterment of society (does it really end with health care? I doubt it) and you want to legislate them, meaning force it upon the unwilling.

    And those bloody dictatorships as often as not have been led by collectivists with their visions of a better society.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  14. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I would not call anyone who is 20+ trillion dollars in debt rich.
     
  15. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Well, all we need to do is print more money.
     
  16. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    As I'm sure you know, money isn't wealth. Printing more dollars doesn't produce more beans, bullets, or band-aids.
     
  17. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    sigh... I don't know if this is sarcasm, but it's not quite that simple.
     
  18. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Based on what I've seen @Le Chef post in the past, I think it was sarcasm.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  19. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    No kidding?
     
  20. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Yes, I know.
     
  21. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So what's with the 'printing money' suggestion?
     
  22. Le Chef

    Le Chef Banned at members request Donor

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    10,688
    Likes Received:
    3,816
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It was a joke.
     
    Longshot likes this.
  23. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Whew. Thanks.
     
  24. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    16,275
    Likes Received:
    4,479
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You do realize that there are lots who actually think like that.
     
    Le Chef likes this.
  25. Longshot

    Longshot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2011
    Messages:
    18,068
    Likes Received:
    2,644
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I think that was the point. Let's not eat our young. We need everyone we can get.
     
    Le Chef likes this.

Share This Page