What To Do About The Long-Term Implications of Automation

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Meta777, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    What I read from these two is they want a marxist society of socialism for every non worker so they can lay aroud and play with their toys all day

    If so so then shouldnt building the wall and ending the influx of illegal aliens be a top priority?

    And the sooner the better

    Along with severely curtailing legal immigration too?
     
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  2. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wait - so you're thing here is that you think education is becoming increasingly important, and... so, you think that we need the government to shift policy to focus on that?

    Let me stop you there:

    1. Do you think that government policy, in general, has made education more or less affordable?
    2. Why do you think people will not choose to obtain a relevant education if it is the path to success?
     
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  3. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    Because there are several different boards of directors trying different things, plus small startups without boards, so that one of them will stumble upon the right decision, whereas with government, you have just one that inevitably will fail to make the right decision. The Japanese government chose which industries to support and chose right for many years and many industries, but eventually its luck ran out, when it decided to support analogue television instead of digital. So today most televisions are manufactured in South Korea and China instead of in Japan. If they'd left the decision to the marketplace, we might be buying Japanese televisions as well as cars.
     
  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Our current levels of taxation are ridiculously low and are a result of allowing way too much money into the election system. If I had my way elections would be limited to a maximum spending limit per candidate of $100,000 from ALL sources. All additional funds raised must be forfeited to pay down the national debt. But that is a digression.

    Here is a role model for what I am talking about.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

    While the above was based upon Catholic teachings the humanitarian principles are universal IMO.

    Also worth noting is that while the economy of the world collapsed in 2008 the Mondragon business model thrived.

    The above is evidence that an employee owned corporation can be competitive in a capitalist economy and that it can do what it right for the employees and their families which leads to prosperity for everyone.

    I see no reason why this cannot be done locally all around America and elsewhere in the world. They have proven that it works so there is an established path to success. No reason at all why Americans cannot do what the Basques have achieved.
     
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  5. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed, though I'd also add that the people with the money today should and in many cases do also recognize the looming problem and would like for the government to address it as well. The question is how we want government to address it though. If it truly is the government's duty to enact some sort of fix, then, in addition to voicing our desire for government to enact such a solution (definitely a big part of the equation), we should also come to some sort of agreement or consensus on what exactly we want that solution to be. Am I right?

    -Meta
     
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  6. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    if the rich get to greedy, and the government can not correct it, society collapses.....
     
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  7. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't believe anyone has suggested that automation will not lead to things becoming more efficient, or even that it wont create new jobs. Surely, there will in fact be new jobs that are created. The question is whether the number of jobs created will be enough to replace all the ones lost, and whether or not the people who lose their jobs will be able to obtain the skills to fill them, and what will happen to those who can't...

    And I don't know who's telling you that tractors and other similar innovations are a bad thing...but that person is wrong. As I mentioned in the OP, innovations and technology are a blessing to human kind and should be celebrated. We just have to take care not to misuse those blessings or fail to adequately adapt our social structures to their implications. Think of it like exercise. Its good for us, without a doubt, but it can become harmful if we do it the wrong way, too much or too fast, or fail to adjust our calorie and water intake to adjust for it.

    -Meta
     
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  8. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    i respectfully disagree as the evidence is already in, and has been in for the entire history of human kind.

    to make it more understandable lets look at recent history, automation kills people today from eating too much when before they died of starvation.

    that shows automation correcting for inefficiencies has no bearing on quality of life for the peasant classes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  9. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    We should all like it when employees have buying power. People tend to forget that that was actually one of Henry Ford's core principals.

    -Meta
     
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  10. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    I agree with you

    Personally I would prefer full employment and rising wages in America over a flood of ever cheaper electronic gadgets from china
     
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  11. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    with all respect, i do not think that forcing people to get college degrees that are 'in demand' is in line with freedom, and therefore cannot be a valid solution to automation in a free country.

    it is a blackmail scenario where they cannot pursue their own interests, whether it is liberal arts or living upon a welfare dole like the universal basic income.
     
  12. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    an unfortunate consequence of the generous expenditures socialism wants to solve for automation does come from closing the borders to both legal and illegal cheap labor.

    it is the moral high ground however for the Americans left behind.
     
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    exactly, corporations have gotten greedy, it used to be a few greedy corps, not it's the majority

    republicans think lowering taxes on greedy companies will cause them to trickle down to their employees... not a chance, it will just make them richer

    now giving the tax cuts to the working class will cause them to have money to spend, which causes the rich to create jobs to get that money

    the real crazy thing is Trumps tax plan gives more to international corporations then it does to the middle class
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  14. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Greedy how?
     
  15. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    profitable companies getting greedy and foreign outsourcing would be a good example

    be patriotic, hire American

    the real problem is when enough do it, the others have to follow suite

    look at quality, used to buy something and would last a life time, to increase profits they shortened that lifespan
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  16. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it's been mentioned before. But I do believe its something that deserves to be mentioned again. We've long sense had the technological know-how to produce machines capable of some pretty amazing feats, but in the past we've always needed a human involved to operate the machinery at some point in the process, simply because the programming used to control machine functions were initially very basic and what it could be counted on to do was limited. In current years however, Artificial Intelligence has been quickly catching up to, and in certain aspects, significantly surpassing the average level of human ability. This is a game-changer for how past and current machinery will be controlled of course, but it also swings the doors wide open for all new types of AI run technology to hit the scene. The possibilities are nearly endless.

    In fact, just about the only hard limitation I can think of that still exists, and will probably continue to exist for quite some time, is that AI run machines are still going to need access to energy, and machines that produce anything are going to continue to have to have access to some sort of raw natural resources.

    What happens when it gets to the point that robots are not only creating new things, but also designing and maintaining other robots? Well, that depends...if we just keep going along as we've been going, we could end up in a scenario with a select handful of individuals owning both the resources and the machines as the only ones able to live comfortably, while others either effectively become slaves to employers who don't really need them and pay accordingly, or die a slow death, completely cutoff from privately owned means of production. That may sound like hyperbole to some, but we've been to a similar place before, and its the sort of thing one finds in other countries of the world even today. On the other hand, if we decided instead to adjust our social structure to account for the new realities of such automation, we can see to it that the benefits born of that technology in concert with the raw natural resources reaches everyone, leading to wide-spread prosperity.

    -Meta
     
  17. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Without tariffs to protect US workers from cheap imports American companies have no choice but to outsource
     
  18. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    C'mon folks. Let's not start it with the partisan bickering and finger-pointing.
    That's not in keeping with the spirit of this thread, and we've actually done pretty good up to this point.

    Remember...we can disagree without being disagreeable. We can even be passionate in our views on the issues,
    but in doing so, let's be careful to make sure that our passions do not get the better of us.

    -Meta
     
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  19. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you REALLY missed the point.

    I'm not complaining even slightly about the change that is taking place. I'm not even complaining about the increasing rate of creative destruction.

    The point I'm making is that these changes are something that must be recognized in public policy as well as personal decision making.

    That's not new.

    When we moved from agriculture to manufacturing corporations needed more than an 8th grade education in their employees. The US responded by making high school both required and available to all.

    As manufacturing changes (and becomes a smaller fraction of total jobs) the US needs to be aware that corporations are requiring more education in their employees. That is, it's more frequent that college education is a job requirement.

    Other nations are recognizing this and are upgrading education to (for example) ensure college education is available to all without students having to incur debt for a degree they may not even end up obtaining. Also, more nations are working on vocational training. We can't afford not to be competitive.

    In the growing sectors of information, high tech, innovation, etc., the required raw material is brains. And, the US has only 5%. We can not afford to waste that resource.
     
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  20. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    We are not doing a good job of educating people even though more are getting diplomas now

    The quality of education is bad
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    1. The public sector has clearly made high school education more affordable. You can't get cheaper than free.

    2. A significant percent of our college age citizens are blocked by the size of the bet they have to place in order to obtain a chance at a 4 year degree. There are other discouragements as well. For example, the "path to success" story is not one that is universally understood, believed or promoted. Plus, we have little in the way of vocational education opportunity.
     
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  22. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Heh, Great minds think alike! :)
    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...cations-of-automation.517121/#post-1068163094

    -Meta
     
  23. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We don't know these future jobs. What we know is that people are going to have to have a full education, focused on the ability to continue learning independently.

    Ignoring subjects that don't get high salary today is not a successful strategy. People do well when they love the material being studied. If you don't really love engineering, you're going to make a crappy engineer - and you will be looking for another job.

    The wage idea ignores the fact that well paid jobs are usually salaried positions. Plus, in high tech, information, etc. (where the growth is likely to be) management is commonly oriented to production, not hours. Nobody ever cared what hours I worked, nor how many.

    There is no possibility of taxation actually improving the wealth of those in the middle class and below. Even ideas of "guaranteed income" are highly unlikely to sustain someone in the middle class. It's more like a minimum wage, especially as Americans would be willing to implement.
     
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  24. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hold on - the *direct* effect of automation will be efficiency improvements *AND* fewer jobs. Automation will not lead to more manufacturing jobs - development of tractors and other farming improvements didn't create enough new jobs to supplant those lost by the techniques, either, HENCE THE comparison. The *creative destruction* is something that comes manifests after such jobs are lost, because that frees up labor for other opportunities.

    I think I've pointed to sufficient parallels between automation and the development of new farming tools to show that they are fundamentally the same issue. If no one can show me problems with farms starting to use tractors over horses, then there is no rational reason to expect that more of what is fundamentally the same (improvements in production efficiency) poses any real concerns. How did we have to "adapt our social structures" to tractors? That's silly, we didn't need any government policies to adapt to it - the adaptation occurred naturally and organically, and it worked out pretty damned well. If there are going to be any issues with adapting to automation, they're only going to be issues of the government getting in the way
     
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  25. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    -_-

    So no actual response to what I said, just that... mindless nonsense.
     

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