"What Was The Holocaust? What Actually Happened?"

Lisa, it seems you play handball

And thank you for your ref. Well, may be that Krakowski ‘s a competent person, but there are many other authoritative sources say about 6,000,000 dead jews. And I don’t see any reasons to question the credibility of their figures . Btw you told about your personal research. Could you explain that in a little more detail pls?

weighty argument. cabala rules

 

LOL.....I do, but this game is Chess and I just called Checkmate cause no matter how many ways you try, 6 million minus 3 million will never equal 6 million.

Deductive reasoning isn't your strong point.

Isn't it frightening though, that in 11 countries what I just said is a CRIME punishable by fines and a prison term.

 

Is this post a joke?

 

No and thank you for reposting it maybe someone will actually click on it and see what a joke it is. Facts only.

 

I did. Your page is spin. Nothing to do with facts.

 

Odd, a comparable number of Christians were killed in "The Holocaust". Depending on whose numbers you use, maybe more, maybe less were Christian than Jew, but comparable. Why then are people who make anti-Christian statements not immediately called nazis and given some defamatory label akin to anti-semite? Why do the Jews have a monopoly on exploiting the holocaust, when they certainly did not have a monopoly on suffering it?

 

May be. But I just suppose that we don’t jump to conclusions Firstly let be clear about one thing.
Is it the reliable information?

I’ve told that the full nominal list of victims does not exist. Also we can’t operate by the demographic features ‘cause it’s very difficult to find out how many jews were annihilated in the concentration camps, be killed in battle or changed their papers and escaped from occupied territories. Don’t forget about the “Sonderaktion 1005”. Nazis exhumed mass graves and burned the bodies. They tried to hide any evidence of the holocaust.
Well Lisa I called the stalemate

you mean that...

 

The Slavs equally suffered from the Holocaust and about 4,862,000 Slavic Jews and about 5,000,000 ethnic Slavs such as Poles and Ukrainians died in the Nazi concentration camps from 1939-45. Nazi Germany's master plan was to colonise Eastern Europe and Slavic and Jewish populations had to be reduced to the minimum to make room for German settlers and it was the worst form of colonialism.

 

To be Historically correct the Holocaust was directed at Communism and the leadership in particular ,Hitler hated socialist and communist working class leaders the most ,Marxism was the Target of the holocaust and in the camps,Hitler thought as Marx was Jewish,and other leaders like Trotsky,as well as others, that their was a causal link with marxism and "Jewish culture ' he was of course wrong !


If one compares the concentration camps with the invasion of the USSR ,the Urkraine particularly ,then the Holocaust called WW2,is of a much greater magnitude,20million compared to 4million Jews ,thats 5to1,but who is counting .The myth of the holocaust is that it was directed at the 'jewish people " solely ,it was not ,it was directed at the Working Class and Marxism![2 million ukranian working class jews constituted Part of the 6million European Workers of Jewish decent exterminated.Yes ,the middle cloass ran away with their passports deserting the workers to their fate.

The hiolocaust was essentially 'Political opposition,Marxism Cleansing " not "Ethnic cleansing per say"BTW,the Zionist Jews profited and were spared the concentration camps.Hitler respected their anti-communist outlook .

 

german imperialism is no more foul then the british or US imperialist varients,The british were the first to set up 'concentration camps" particulary perfected in the Boer war 1899-1902 ,and where well into "Ethnic cleansing ' in the colonies ,and US Imperialism well,hiroshima and Nagasaki caome to mind as well as the daytime fire bombings of german cities .Dresden and Hamburg comes to mind . And thats just some of it ,Afghanistan ,Iraq ,for instance ?

 

I guess some people have never heard of the "Die Endlösung".

 

Really?.....well what specifically isn't factual?

 

Family of Holocaust Survivor Ordered to Return Artifact

A Brooklyn court has ordered the family of a Holocaust survivor to return a 3,200-year-old artifact to a German museum.

The Assyrian artifact is a golden tablet about the size of a passport photo that was looted from the Vorderasiatisches Museum in Berlin during World War II, according to court papers.

The tablet was discovered in 1913 by a group of German archeologists in Iraq, court papers read. It was placed in the Berlin museum in 1926, but when an inventory was conducted in 1939, the tablet was missing.

The looter has been pegged as Auschwitz survivor Riven Flamenbaum.

"He was at Auschwitz for a period of almost five years," Flamenbaum's daughter, Hannah Segal, told ABC News. "The Germans put him into forced labor and he walked out of there by some miracle.

"The tablet represented his ability to survive," she said. "It represented a dark period in my parents' lives and lives of Jewish people."

Flamenbaum left Auschwitz in 1945, when he was sent to a camp in Germany.

It was not clear how he obtained the tablet, but when he and his wife immigrated to the United States four years later, the tablet was one of his most prized possessions.

"This was never something that was going to make him rich or he was going to sell," said Segal, 60. "It was a memento, a legacy. I never knew a grandfather, aunt, uncle or cousin. No family. The tablet is our legacy."

When Flamenbaum died in 2003, his children found the golden square in his estate.

The museum sued for its return in 2010, but a Nassau County Surrogate Court judge ruled in favor of the Flamenbaum family, saying the museum never reported the tablet as stolen.

"The museum sat on their rights for 60 years and now they say they're entitled to it," Segal said.

A recent appellate court ruling reversed the Nassau County decision, ordering the tablet to be returned.

The family's attorney, Seth Presser, said most similar cases involve a Holocaust victim trying to reclaim stolen property taken by the Nazis, not a museum going after a survivor.

"The time frame is a huge factor, as is the emotion of the case," Presser said. "This tablet was one of the first things he had in his hands when he came to this country. He raised three children. He started a new life here, and now they're being chased down by his past."

But attorney Raymond Dowd said otherwise.

Dowd, who represented the museum and has served family members of Holocaust survivors in the past, said having the tablet returned to Germany is a "victory for the museums of the world."

"This a public treasure for scholars of the world," Dowd said. "It's a rare artifact, and the world scholars deserve to study it. It doesn't belong in private hands."

 

I only read the beginning and it is as I said written as spin. What was for instance the point of suggesting that the Germans were intending on moving the Jews to Madagasga when they were actively involved with zionists in deals to send them to Palestine? I believe there are some things which are questionable. The Number of people who perished and the Gas Chambers. However there is sufficient evidence to show that Jews and others were treated in a manner which was a crime against humanity and that this was done in a systematic way. The article tries to give it a clean spin and in that way denies what really happened.

Because the Internet has opened up information and discussion which people did not have before, I think that this should be open and subject to research and debate in an honest intellectual level. However at the same time I see people here who appear to want to take us back to the same kind of mentality there was in Germany then and then I can kind of understand why people would not want to open it up for discussion.

Germany murdered children who were handicapped. German believed in Eugenics. Germany did want a Master Race. While some exaggerations may indeed have been made, to try and give Germany a clean sheet on terrible crimes which she did commit and which were against civilians is not acceptable to me. To do so is to start again.

While I do accept that there are things which can be questioned, I do not think there is anyway that you can whitewash what happened. Torturing people, mass killing, slave labour and starving from lack of food is much the same as what is called genocide by the Turks against the Armenian's. It is still genocide.

 

Nazi concentrations camps 1945

[video=youtube;q02xSb1f5H8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q02xSb1f5H8[/video]

 

Especially when you consider the Soviet atrocities as well. They starved the entire country of Ukraine, for crying out loud. They taught the Nazis everything they knew about operating concentration camps and exterminating people.

 

Well good then....I only read the beginning of your message and stopped.

You are not qualified to call the facts in that piece "spin" when you didn't even bother to read it.

The End.

 

$40M in Holocaust Reparations Stolen in Massive Scam

Preet Bharara, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, and Janice K. Fedarcyk, the Assistant Director-In-Charge of the New York Office of the FBI, announced today the unsealing of criminal charges against seventeen alleged members of a long-running scheme that defrauded programs established to aid survivors of Nazi persecution out of more than $42 million. Employees of the Conference on Jewish Material Claims Against Germany (the “Claims Conference&#8221, which administered the programs, were supposed to process and approve legitimate applications. Instead, they allegedly approved over 5,500 fraudulent applications, resulting in payouts to applicants who did not qualify for the programs. In exchange, these insiders kept a portion of the money for themselves and their coconspirators.

Manhattan U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara said: “If ever there was a cause that you would hope and expect would be immune from base greed and criminal fraud, it would be the Claims Conference, which every day assists thousands of poor and elderly victims of Nazi persecution. Sadly, those victim funds were themselves victimized. Without the extraordinary cooperation of the Claims Conference in ferreting out this alleged scheme to defraud them, it never would have been exposed. We thank them for their assistance. With our partners at the FBI, we will bring to justice all those who would callously line their own pockets by looting a lifeline for Holocaust survivors.”

FBI Assistant Director-in-Charge Janice K. Fedarcyk said: “Each of the defendants played a role in creating, filing and processing fraudulent claims on behalf of non-qualifying applicants — and dividing up the spoils. Funds established and financed by the German government to aid Holocaust survivors were siphoned off by the greedy, and not paid out, as intended, to the worthy. This was a brazen miscarriage of the compensation programs.”
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As alleged in the Criminal Complaint and other charging documents unsealed today:

The Claims Conference, a not-for-profit organization which provides assistance to victims of Nazi persecution, supervises and administers several funds that make reparation payments to victims of the Nazis, including “the Hardship Fund” and “the Article 2 Fund,” both of which are funded by the German government. Applications for disbursements through these funds are processed by employees of the Claims Conference’s office in Manhattan, and the employees are supposed to confirm that the applicants meet the specific criteria for payments under the funds.

As part of the charged scheme, a web of individuals -– including six of the employees who worked for the Claims Conference -– systematically defrauded the Article 2 Fund and Hardship Fund programs for over a decade. As explained in the Complaint, the Claims Conference first suspected the fraud in December 2009, and immediately reported their suspicions to law enforcement, which conducted a wide-reaching investigation resulting in the charges unsealed today.

The Hardship Fund pays a one-time payment of approximately $3,600 to victims of Nazi persecution who evacuated the cities in which they lived and were forced to become refugees. Members of the conspiracy submitted fraudulent applications for people who were not eligible. Many of the recipients of fraudulent funds were born after World War II, and at least one person was not even Jewish. Some conspirators recruited other individuals to provide identification documents, such as passports and birth certificates, which were then fraudulently altered and submitted to corrupt insiders at the Claims Conference, who then processed those applications. When the applicants received their compensation checks, they kept a portion of the money and passed the rest back up the chain.

From the investigation to date, approximately 4,957 Hardship Fund applications from 2000 through 2009 appear to be fraudulent. These applications resulted in a loss to the Hardship Fund of approximately $18 million. The Article 2 Fund makes monthly payments of approximately $411 to survivors of Nazi persecution who make less than $16,000 per year, and either (1) lived in hiding or under a false identity for at least 18 months; (2) lived in a Jewish ghetto for 18 months; or (3) were incarcerated for six months in a concentration camp or a forced labor camp.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=74990

 

Hitler did in fact send jews to Palestine, and also planned to send them to Madagascar. Most of the Jews emigrated to Palestine ended up in New Yorlk. A shipload of jews was truned away from the United States at the beginning of the war. There is no way to return to before WWII but to clarify what really happened is something that has to be done. Right now you always hear people describe the present system as Nazi which couldn't be farther from the truth This is a short video which shows more on the topic. If you can refute anything in the video please be specific.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jy1NmjZtC4&skipcontrinter=1

 

I had a look at your propaganda film. It is quite interesting that you see nothing amiss with a solution of Jews with stars on them to identify them needing to leave Germany but being allowed to take their money with them. This I imagine was part of the Transfer agreement with Zionists in Palestine

http://www.transferagreement.com/index.php?page=10197

All you are saying is that Jews were forced to leave and that because of the transfer agreement for a short time a few with money were able to leave for Palestine and from there to hop it to New York where they wanted to go anyway. A few escaped by other means as well. The UK increased it's immigration quota for Jews and many heroes worked at schemes to get as many as possible out.

I am in complete agreement that truth must be restated to stop the deliberate attempt to create a similar situation today. So lets look at the facts, though out not bundled together in a propaganda film.

Yes, the US changed it's immigration regulations to limit the number of Jews allowed in. The US was the favourite destination for Jews and the US at the time was itself extremely antisemetic. Suggestions had been made by some Eugenicists for instance that Jews and others be put in camps and within a generation they would be gone. We lived in a very different world. There were even human zoos where Westerners would come and look at people brought from remote countries and pat themselves on the back at their superiority. White Supremacy ruled. Eugenics was the order of the day. The extreme which Germany took that to woke up the world. You wish to send it back to there.

So let's look at your heroes

http://www.jewishmag.com/115mag/holocaustdeny/holocaustdeny.htm

David Irvine it would appear is no expert just like the leading anti Muslim extremists Islam 'expert' (name escapes me for the moment) is no expert.

Case finished. Only a person who has thorough training in how to research a particular field and who has spent time arguing with those with different ideas, usually up to post graduate and teaching level can claim to be an expert. David Irvine it would appear has none of this but simply picks and chooses what he wants and now you want to spread his amateur work which clearly is created to fit his agenda as truth to fit your desire to spread hate of all 'semites'

http://www.politicalforum.com/histo...ification-europe-1951-a-2.html#post1061285451

You guys have no leg to stand on but people's ignorance. I have read his work and he sounds convincing but so does the above appraisal of him.

Regardless of whether Gas Chambers ever existed. Regardless if the number is a bit off. Nazi Germany deliberately rounded up Europe's Jews and put them to slave labour and fed them so little they starved to death, if they first of all survived mass killings, torture and brutal beatings. There is no excuse for this. You can see from videos that well fed and healthy German's were forced to come and view concnetration camp survivors. There is no excuse, just attempts by modern neo nazis to cover up.

I agree it also happened to the Roma and gays – not pure enough for the eugenics ideas and also to Jehovas Witnesses, not sure why they them and Poles and Russians who were also considered inferior people. In 1933 "Law on the Revocation of Naturalization" was passed depriving Jews and Gypsies of citizenship and a law to promote sterialisation of those believed to be inferior passed – this led to forced sterialiasation of Gypsies, the mentally and physically disabled and labelling African Germans and others as inferior.


Michael Howard was I think correct that making holocaust denial a criminal offence did just make martyrs of those deniers but it did not make what they said any more true or based on anything other than centuries old racism one which the Nazis took to the point of genocide. There may indeed be controversy over things related to this but that it happened is fact. You simply are relying on propaganda by neo nazi's/white nationalists.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II
In violation of the Hague Conventions, British line of communication troops conducted small scale looting in Bayeux and Caen in France, following their liberation, during Operation Overlord.

While "no agreement, treaty, convention or any other instrument governing the protection of the civilian population or civilian property" from aerial attack was adopted before the war and Allied forces concluded that an air attack on the German city of Dresden was justified on the grounds the city was defended, militarily justified and attacked military objectives historian Donald Bloxham claims that "the bombing of Dresden on 13–14 February 1945 was a war crime". He further argues that there was a strong prima facie for trying Winston Churchill among others and that there is theoretical case that he could have been found guilty. "This should be a sobering thought. If, however it is also a startling one, this is probably less the result of widespread understanding of the nuance of international law and more because in the popular mind 'war criminal', like 'paedophile' or 'terrorist', has developed into a moral rather than a legal categorisation."

The "London Cage", a MI19 prisoner of war facility in the UK during and immediately after the war, was subject to allegations of torture.

 

Millions would wish to go to Palestine, certainly to get out of Europe; and Dr. Weizmann felt that his prime responsibility was to that movement of the millions, two, three or even four million being mentioned. Churchill's assurances meant a great deal to him. Indeed it was in Churchill's mind that in recognition of how much those Jews had suffered, not only should they acquire Palestine after the war, but that Palestine itself should have some mandatory area into which the Jews, the victims, could have some recompense, a place to go. He even suggested Libya, or possibly Eritrea, as a place which might be given to the Jews as their own territory to control, as a Mandate for a Jewish Palestine. Churchill had no doubt that a terrible crime had been committed. As he wrote to Anthony Eden on the day that the escapees' account of the truth about Auschwitz and the "unknown destination" reached him. There is no doubt that this is probably the greatest and most horrible crime ever committed in the whole history of the world, and it has been done by scientific machinery by nominally civilised men in the name of a great State and one of the leading races of Europe. It is quite clear that all concerned in this crime who may fall into our hands, including the people who only obeyed orders by carrying out the butcheries, should be put to death after their association with the murders has been proved.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/support/the-churchill-centre/publications/churchill-proceedings/596-churchill-and-the-holocaust-the-possible-and-impossible

 

You are trying to find incidence of bad behaviour by the British in WW2 and to equivocate that with acts of genocide towards Jews and others in WW2 and the denial of it today and the use of that denial to try in the present day to recreate hatred of Jews.

You are not comparing like with like.

 

Palestine is a different issue.

It was indeed known that the Jews of Europe were in severe danger. For that reason many schemes were set up, some guy arranged with the US that a quota would be allowed immigration but they had to be of very high intellectual or artistic standing, a Brit managed to rescue thousands of children to come to Britain, another Brit managed to arrange for thousands to settle in South America. Before the war broke out there is no question that it was known that the Jews of Germany were in sever danger. Many schemes were arranged to evacuate Jews and many did illegally move to Palestine and unsurprisingly this caused an uprising by the indigenous population. The British set strict limitations on the number of Jews who were admitted. Palestine was not after all as original propaganda had said, a barren land without a people for a people without a land. It had a population who had been settled there as recent genetic research shows for up to 5,000 years and neither Churchill nor anyone else had the right to offer this land, which the indigenous population had already been promised sovereignty of to anyone else. Churchill had mixed feelings about both Jews and their settlement of Palestine largely based on issues concerned with colonialism and Jews acting for the British in that area.

There is however no question that people knew that Jews were in severe danger. The problem was that countries were closing immigration for them - obviously alarmed that they may be the one to receive all European Jews. A British Rabbi came up with a solution. He suggested that all countries get together and take a certain number of Jews as a temporary measure of protection. When the situation calmed down a permanent solution could be found. This idea was put to the British Parliament but was refused by Zionists because the only place they wanted Jews to go to which was not at that moment popular by Jews was Palestine. Because of this refusal by the Zionists nothing came of the plan and many who could have been saved were not. I don't think Zionism helped Jews most of whom did not seem keen on Palestine prior to the holocaust. I can understand why people wanted to go there after but really countries like the US, UK, Canada, Australia and so on should have opened there doors wide for Jewish immigration.