What would free college really look like?

Discussion in 'Education' started by Bridget, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. Bridget

    Bridget Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,227
    Likes Received:
    1,702
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I can't blame young people for thinking "free" college would be a pretty good deal. A long time ago, parents were sold a bill of goods, that the ONLY path to their kids' success was college. Forget the trades or getting a job and working your way up. We were sold this because the schools wanted the tuition payments and because the government wanted the interest. We then proceeded to sell it to our kids. So fast forward, we have a generation of kids who know they will never get a job good enough to justify the cost of college and who will be in debt literally for decades. So, I can't blame them for trying. But, I wonder what it would really look like if college was "free."

    First, forget the government forgiving the loans already out. It's too much money, not going to happen. I am then thinking that the "free" would be a series of what we know as community colleges. You would go to one in your locale and live probably with your parents, because I can't imagine government is going to give free dorms or meals. You would also most likely have to have a job, because after they take about 50% of mom and dad's income, spending money from that outlet will vanish. Only the most basic degree would be "free"; if you wanted to get a PhD, you're still going to pay for it. And I imagine that there would be a waiting list a mile long, so going to college right after high school would be out of the question.

    These are just my thoughts. I'm sure others on this forum know a lot more than I do, so I am wondering...I think these discussions are important to have though before the young (and their parents) vote. It might be a be careful what you wish for thing. Thoughts?
     
  2. perdidochas

    perdidochas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    27,293
    Likes Received:
    4,346
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Look at what free K-12 schools are like......
     
    HockeyDad likes this.
  3. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2012
    Messages:
    33,372
    Likes Received:
    36,882
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male


    Want to know? Just look at my school the City of College of New York founded in 1847 and once known as the Free Academy. For over 100 years it was tuition free and generally acknowledged as the greatest college in USA history.
     
  4. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    11,205
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The state of California effectively offered free college at its state universities in the 70s (nearly free) but has since no longer been able to do so.
    (class fees were pretty trivial, a student could pay for them with a part-time minimum wage job, and then there were the expense of books)

    Today the up-front sticker price of California universities are so expensive many children of middle class families (who do not qualify for student financial assistance) find it is no more expensive to go to an out of state university.

    What that effectively means is that the state is no longer subsidizing the cost of tuition for its in state students.

    What this has been caused by is the huge surge in student population caused by illegal immigration (and partly legal, but to a lesser extent) and a huge number of poor families in the state.

    So within a span of 40 years the state has gone from nearly free to nearly not paid for by the state at all (for kids from middle class families).

    These are nearly the two most extremes possible.

    In a normal state, the tuition price would cover about half of the expense for that student and the other half comes from taxes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  5. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113

    Wouldn't need to be 'community colleges'. In my country, the vast majority of university students live at home and commute. All of our larger cities have several universities to choose from, so there's something for everyone. Also, we don't have the campus accommodation that you have in America. Or rather, there is a small amount of it available in SOME universities, but it's super expensive and they don't provide meals. So yeah, it can be done in the traditional sense.

    I agree with the idea of only funding the basic degree, but would add the proviso that it should only be degrees which guarantee immediate full time work in the field trained for. Also, if the degree is not completed to a reasonable graduation level, or is dropped out of, then full costs must be paid. If we're going to fund such things (and I think we should), we must do it fairly and equitably. My scenario is the only fair and equitable way to do it.
     
  6. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Good luck with that Higher Institutions would demand no restrictions most likely and they would dumb it down and spin the degrees so they all get work. What would be your grounds for banning taking Philosophy as a major its a very old classic degree going back many centuries, is common for pre-law students and what if they take good minors to go with it say a business minor and something else?

    You know if its free all parents will favor getting the degree in anything over trade school or apprenticeships or something else and if Johnny did only okay in High School that degree in Social Justice might be the go to degree or something simple enough to get by on for the piece of paper.

    Prove to me I'm wrong look at High School how many focus on technical educations and getting work out of High School well under 10% is my guess back when my parents attended school it was ,seriously, 85% with pre-college for the really smart people who were seriously the kind of minds you want to send to college. The best of the best and really motivated hard working students who were still pretty smart.
     
  7. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    If Philosophy does not guarantee an immediate full time job, then it doesn't get funding. We don't do 'pre' type degrees in this country, so not sure how to address that. We just do straight "Law" or "Medicine", and study only that for the 4 or 5 years needed.

    And again, I would never fund "Social Justice". Not in a million years. On drugs. After losing my mind. Though I agree that Trades should get equal focus and funding. Trades are the way of the future for many kids, if their parents are sensible and responsible. All Western nations currently have a serious lack of licensed tradespeople.
     
    HockeyDad likes this.
  8. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    We are talking the USA here a case of no college equals okay maybe not a loser but well 'less than' college and to many parents not as good as college.

    And you think Universities and their SJW cadre of power won't fight limited funding to so called to them useful majors and minors your naïve in academia the left holds all the cards and enough political and corporate influence to block funding it will be all or nothing to them. And to many a degree in Gender Studies is the same as or better than a degree in Nursing as sad as that is.

    I know my extended family are odd going into the armed forces, learning trades and earning degrees that way however to many parents they equate college to good jobs since their generation degrees in anything did equal good jobs, no degree you better have lots of skills, even then how many parents will fight not letting Johnny or Jenny getting a low cost to them degree. And low income parents will see limits as keeping their darling maybe whose a racial minority from getting a degree even if its in English ,sorry that can be useful if done right, say something like got it Art History if their child wants to work in a museum or art gallery even if there are few jobs in that. Or Archeology, Sociology, Writing, Art, Theater or African-American Studies.

    When I went to college I paid my own way and only wanted a two year degree for personal growth but for many no degree leaves them out of the job market if their peers have one an they don't even if not needed for a career or job.
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    May 15, 2017
    Messages:
    34,633
    Likes Received:
    11,205
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Giving people more degrees doesn't solve the underlying problem though.
     
  10. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Parents will only think your keeping 'their child' especially if a minority racial member from a degree which to many means good job. And no one is talking about other options neither are many employers it seems to many you have the degree it means your smarter and trainable over people without one and for apprenticing to work it needs to be standardized and part of education like Germany does and employers heavily supporting it. Trade schools again need to be something parents desire and their children want to go to as first choices.

    I know what will happen first they will pay for any degree, schools will dumb down more removing mathematics and harder subjects as electives and then the government will be funding the extended childhood for a lot of young adults four more years or more. Since the colleges must hire more staff and upgrade campuses they will do what they can to maximize attendance at State schools. Private schools will then become the place to get into if your to be taken seriously and what I said will bleed into all but the top schools as Harvard and Yale dumb down and MIT and other demanding schools such as Julliard will matter.

    This is all a bad idea free will equal bad. I would focus money in the High Schools, add a year then have say 85% focus on career preparation and getting people ready to be adaptable employees and the other schools hard and demanding college prep and I mean hard prep to get into the best schools with high demands. If they couldn't enter a Service Academy or try to get into MIT they shouldn't be in the academic schools.
     
  11. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113

    We have standardised apprenticeships in the Trades in this country. All supported by employers.

    The only way in to our universities is via academic minimum criteria (which is VERY low for Arts/Humanities .. something like 70%). And our scholarships are almost all academic .. only being available to kids who excel academically. Our universities aren't trying to get low performers into school, they're trying to get high performers in.
     
  12. tkolter

    tkolter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2012
    Messages:
    7,134
    Likes Received:
    598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The problem is if government is paying the tuition everyone who has any average intelligence will want to go and their parents will insist their child go regardless of the major the child chooses the selectivity for a public school will be very much be pressured to dramatically reduce those to be more like a Community College where few turn anyone away. I know someone with an IQ of 91 graduate such a school with a degree in law enforcement he was a hard worker but struggled. You think schools won't water down their schools to get thousands more bright and shiny students with government tuition checks and the scholarly professors many new hired temps will mind more work and maybe more chances of a permanent job? If so your so naïve I would make sure my school turned down as few as possible as I added housing, facilities, class buildings and redid the courses and curriculum to be as easy as possible for soft majors no mathematics or languages, put in easy option for others and told Professors not to make things too hard make sure everyone can do okay. Now hard majors like the sciences would not be likely that easy but everyone entering could earn a degree in something even if in General Studies.
     
  13. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's why it absolutely cannot be indiscriminate. It must be limited to vocational courses (and Trades). In universities that means STEM .. and the entry requirements for STEM are much much higher than for all the other stuff. Parents will need to have planned for it years ahead by supporting high academic achievement. IOW, their own input will need to be huge. That will put off about 90% of parents.
     
  14. pitbull

    pitbull Banned Donor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    6,149
    Likes Received:
    2,857
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It is good because there are many talented but poor people.

    Out of self-interest, each country should provide good education to everyone. Highly specialized people are the most important asset of every country.
     
  15. Mr_Truth

    Mr_Truth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2012
    Messages:
    33,372
    Likes Received:
    36,882
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male



    Being certified learning disabled but with a BA and JD, it was tough as heck to excel in school. Of course, as I have said before, I regret going to school since the two degrees were of no value and never got me a job in those fields. It can be done despite the handicap but more often than not, it's not worth the effort.
     
  16. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2012
    Messages:
    107,541
    Likes Received:
    34,488
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Woo Hoo! More physical training graduates!
     
  17. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Talent isn't what provides financial security, a work ethic is. The world is full of 'talented' paupers.
     

Share This Page