Whatever happened to David Cole?

Many years ago, I watched a documentary about a young and articulate secular Jew called David Cole.

For someone so young, he spoke with eloquence and intelligence, and for those two reasons alone, merits being listened to.

The idea of an articulate young Jewish kid of no more than his teens, speaking so well, is perhaps not esp unique.

But David Cole was what we have been tutored to call a 'holocaust revisionist'.

He is not the only one that happens to be Jewish, but he was by far the youngest.

Despite his obviously passive nature, and hate of violence, and despite the fact that he said that an intellectual problem must always be countered intellectually, and not by way of legislation or attack, David Cole was indeed the victim of attack, persecuted, harrassed, primarily it must be said by the somewhat questionable JDL. (They threatened to assasinate him, and put out a ransom for his address)

The last I heard of Cole, he went undeground in the late 90's. He literally seemed to vanish.

It would seem strange to me, if you listen to the passion and intellect that he demostrated in his younger days, that he would willingly just do this, thus, I do not think there was any question that he did it for his own personal safety, after being threatened by the JDL and their associates.

One must ask what sort of world we live in, and what sort of groups are the JDL, when they can persecute a young and intelligent Jewish lad, who happens to wish to debate what he considers to be something worthy of debate?

Are those that persecuted him any better than Brownshirts, who went around harrassing those whose views were deemed to be out of step with a German narrative, or the small % of unhinged Muslims that would put a bounty on a man's head, for writing a novel (Rushdie).

Before we hear David Cole speak, I must stress than in saying all of the above, does not mean that I concur with all that he says.

Nor does it mean I dismiss it either.

Without further ado....

[video=youtube;t9Rkpdv0lu0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9Rkpdv0lu0[/video]

My own thoughts later.....

 

May be a good point to establish what I gather 'holocaust revisionism' is, and what it is not.

It is not a denial of large scale death, including that of many innocents, during that time.

It is not a denial that Jews were harshly treated, in German and in other parts of Europe.

It is not an endorsement of the Reich, their policies, or their motives.

It is not a denial that many Jews were interned, esp as Germany landed on Poland and Russia.

It is evident to me that it is not those things.

Here is what it may be.

An objection and query as to why Jewish deaths have been elevated to a status that is above the deaths of all others. For instance, we are all brought up on this six million Jews died figure, yet do we know, with equal speed, how many Americans, British, Poles, or Ukranians died?

A query as to the numbers that are given to us as not just fact, but fact that you cannot query in parts of Europe, without fear of going to prison.

A query as to what led to the deaths of most of those that are often shown on newsreels as having been victims of large scale gassings. The inclination is that the bulk of deaths were actually caused by disease, which was rampant, and lack of food. It is their further assertion that it was only in the final months that those interned began to die off in large number, due to the fact that Europe was in ruins, and supply lines for food etc had been entirely cut, or made almost impossible, thus conditions lent themselves to death.

That there is no written documentation, order, or directive that exists, which specifically speaks about or orders the entire extermination of Jews. Further, it is their view that the Reich wished to expel Jews from Europe, this was their initiative, this was their policy, not the eradication of Jews. Moreover, that the so called final solution, was not about an orchestated attempt at genocide, worldwide, but the idea of removing Jews, by force if need be, and expelling them from Europe.

That the suffering of Jews specifically, has been elevated above all other suffering, of anyone else, to serve a cynical mutli billion dollar industry, that being the holocaust industry, from which people get v rich from it. (Not any of those that lived through the intern camps, it must be said).

That it has been elevated for political ends, that being for the creation of the Jewish state of Israel, and so that continual exposure to the holcaust, as told by the official line, keeps money flowing out of Germany, in the form of reparations, a sum which is on going, and runs into billions. And to gain a toe hold over the US people, to ensure the flow of money to Israel.

That there is no evidence of the existance of gas chambers that would be viable.

That holocaust museums routinely exhibit items that they claim to be some shocking remnant of what was done to Jews, during that time. For instance, for many years, soap was exhibited, which was passed off as being made from the fat of Jews who were 'burned'. This has turned out to be entire fiction, the soap underwent testing and proved to be .... soap!

This is my basic understanding of what revisionists of this are, and are not.

Jack

 

After a little more research, I managed to find this...

http://www.whale.to/b/cole_h.html

'Became a victim of the JDL. Was physically beaten. Had his life threatened on the Internet by the Jewish Defense League'

'A young Jewish holocaust denier, posing as a believer, puts some hard questions to the senior curator of the Auschwitz State Museum. After making this video, a "hit" was put out on Cole, and a reward for information on his whereabouts was issued by Irv Rubin (who years later, was arrested by the FBI for planning to kill a Lebanese-American Congressman.) Fearing assassination, Cole went into hiding. He never surfaced again publicly.'

'On January 22, 1992, revisionist activist David Cole was attacked by JDL thugs at a meeting held at the University of California at Los Angeles. Before the meeting began, JDL leader Rubin first tried to push the youthful Cole down a flight of stairs. JDL hoodlums also harassed and pushed around meeting organizer Robert Morrissey. After the meeting commenced, JDL punks tried to shout down the speakers, and then threw food at Cole. Finally, a JDL thug assaulted Cole -- who is Jewish -- hitting him in the face and bloodying his nose.'


Interesting stuff, and I must make a point of reading more about Irv Rubin.


And then, set against the backdrop evidenced above, some time later, it appears that Mr Cole had a miracle retraction.

Excerpts from David Cole's retraction:

I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe's Jews during World War II, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable...

I now understand that I owe it to the people I wronged to make a forceful repudication [sic] of my earlier views. I also owe a very large apology, not only to the many people I enraged, and to the family and friends I hurt, but especially to the survivors of the Holocaust, who deserve only our respect and compassion, not re-victimization.

Therefore, to all of the above people, let me offer my most humble and very, very sincere apology. I am sorry for what (I) did, and I am sorry for the hurt I caused...

 

I thought I would revive this thread, and hope that readers take on what I said before.

Well, I suppose those on PF for honest debate will do, anyway.

Consider these questions, without defaulting to a conditoned reaction, really think yes or no to each..


1) Do you feel special or disproportionate status is given specifically to alleged Jewish deaths and Jewish suffering in WW2 and at large? For instance, even a chav who has never read a book will recite that 'six million Jews died', as if it were unquestionable fact. But would he know about the slaughter of some 25 million Russian Christians, would he know how many non Jewish citizens were killed and treated brutually, just as he has been conditioned to KNOW the Jewish deaths?

2) Do you believe that without the emergence of the NS Party and the Fuhrer, that in 1948, the Jews would not have been able to immigrate to Palestine, and declare themselves a Jewish state?

3) Do you think the sheer volume of reported deaths on purpose, was significant the the Zionists being able to get their national state? For instance, the reported figure of six million sounds staggering. It would be staggering, and it is cleary a figure that would shock. But what if it had been much less than that? What if the total number of Jews killed on purpose was only a % of that. Would it still have had the same post war impact?

4) Since the Jews were certainly not popular in Europe at that time, oddly enough Germany was not so bad initially, compared to Russia and Poland, it soon became apparent to World Zionists that this was the case, even before the rise of the Fuhrer, why did they often collaborate to block attempts to let Jews migrate from Europe? Even when it was being routinely reported in the US media about the alleged plight of the Jews, the World Zionist movement did nothing, except for do a deal with Hitler called the Transfer Agreement. This involved letting rich Zionist Jews escape. World Zionism was v powerful, even back then, do not doubt that. Powerful enough to have arranged for the migration of all Jews who were not wanted by Germany. And yet they didn't. They didn't, and they worked against it. Why? Do you think it could take us back to 2 and 3?

5) Is it important if the figure was six million, or is it important if some evidence can already be debunked? Only if historical accuracy and truth matter, at all. Then, yes, it should. We know that the US killed a great many innocent Japanese, with A Bombs. But would it matter if on the back of that terrible thing we then claimed that 30 million Japanese died? Would it matter if we then claimed Americans ate their babies, and pass that off as historical fact, and anyway, why bother challenging it? Hardly.

6) Would it be fair to say that since 48 and 67, the holocaust has oft been used as a money making venture or means to illicit European guilt and self hate?

7) Would it be fair to say that A'witz has been turned into a macabre and tasteless amusement park, and that many true survivors of the camps died poor, despite all the money that goes around?

Seven fair and reasonable questions anyone should ask themselves, imo.

 

Maybe he just grew up and got on with his life.

The same question you are asking is being asked on Stormfront.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/skeptic-magazine/skeptic-4.html

 

I take it you defend his right to a verbal opinion though, even if it is not the one that suits a given state?

You do believe in that freedom, yes?

And you would denounce anyone that should thuggery against mere words and views, would you not, Hoosier?

Of course you would.

So...


'Became a victim of the JDL. Was physically beaten. Had his life threatened on the Internet by the Jewish Defense League'

'A young Jewish holocaust denier, posing as a believer, puts some hard questions to the senior curator of the Auschwitz State Museum. After making this video, a "hit" was put out on Cole, and a reward for information on his whereabouts was issued by Irv Rubin (who years later, was arrested by the FBI for planning to kill a Lebanese-American Congressman.) Fearing assassination, Cole went into hiding. He never surfaced again publicly.'

 

Not sure what happened to this man but I would disagree with you on a few points. The Nazi's kept very accurate records of those who were exterminated which is where we get the total numbers from. I have personally researched Jewish families for different projects and have often used the German records to see what happened to them during the war.

Also during the Nuremburg trials, many of the leading Nazi's verified this number of around 6 million. Hermann Goering, Hans Franck, Seyss-Inquardt and Adolf Eichmann admitted these facts.

Since we can fairly accurately estimate that it was around 6 million that died, the rest of your 7 points are a bit irrelevant as they all tie into this fact.

One last thing I would comment on is the question of why the Jewish holocaust overshadows the rest of the millions of deaths of other people during the war. The Jews were distinctly targeted for their belief and Hitler laid the blame squarely on them for the loss in wwI. They as a group were specifically target for extermination and although people like the Japanese routinely wiped out entire populations that wasn't their main intent.

 

Whether propaganda or not, Hitler also blamed the for starting WWII.

 

But his hate of them developed from wwI.

 

Beautifully stated.

 

Zionists have been usurping nations for hundreds of years.

Hitler was punished and publicly demonized and falsely slandered for resisting their bloodsucking Imperialism.

Or so the story should have gone.

It's unfortunate that he may have actually been a paid agent of Zionism itself.

 

Well he certainly got even with them didn't he?

 

One does wonder.

The problem we have is that history is oft much more sophisticated, complex, and full of nuance, than the black and white version that is neatly packaged and sold for general consumption.

It is utterly absurd for anyone to acknowledge that states, intelligence services, politicians, and other elites lie to us today, while somehow believing that everything other elites and states have told us about the past, must be on the button, in all aspects.

I cannot fairly see how anyone can hold those two thoughts, at the same time.

I have also seen, with the eyes that i have to see, and understood, with the brain that I have to understand, that for decades now we often see this routine of elites singling out a give man, having previously done business with him, even fettered him, then demonising him, to act as as excuse to dispense with him.

I have digested the elites portyal of Gadaffi, and compared it to the real man, and what he did for his own people.

The contrast is staggering, polar opposite even.

I have learned how they were buddies with Saddam, right up until they decided to off him, and 150,000 human beings along with him.

Is it possible that they did this in the past, with people like Hitler, for example?

I am certain that it must be.

Unless dishonesty and being hypocritical and double dealing have just been invented, which I doubt.

We know that political Zionism was v born in the 1890's.

Initially, they had great trouble getting Jews to come over to this reinvention of Judaism, from a religion to a national identity.

The creators of political Zionism were hard core atheists btw, so that should put to bed any religous BS claim they lay on Palestine, which they never stop doing. Even today, most Zionists you speak to, they will have no spiritual belief, purely in the material they are.

By the 1900's, Zionists, albeit not large in number, had cheated, ill traded, and bribed their way into quite some influence.

Not to anything like what we see today, this dystopian nightmare, but influential notwithstanding.

People do not get told that there was actually a huge rift among European Jews.

There were those that robustly resisted this aggressive idea of almost trading the religous importance for a material one.

And there were the Rabbi's and other Jews who were willing to sell out on this, they liked the idea, and they wanted their idea to be the redefining one for Jews.

Those that resisted were greater in number. But numbers alone is not anything like enough to defeat a well organised and well funded minority.

One person can defeat one hundred, if that one acts with no morals, and wins by deceptions.

Zionists were desperate to be a state, they did not even really care where that should be.

Uganda and the Seychelles came close to being their prime bit of real estate. How they dodged a bullet, huh?

I have read a lot, and thought a lot about this, and I am certain that if World Zionists felt that creating the conditions in which a lot of Jews may die, in Europe, could secure them a state, that they would, in the blink of an eye, seek to help push those conditions along.

There is no doubt to me that Zionists would do that, because today, I can see and hear what they are like. I would imagine they did not differ in nature too much, back then.

If the NA had not risen/seized power, then I imagine that Jews would have just gone on living, as they had, in the countries they were born in, and their family.

Basically, in order to create an actual state for Jews, Jewish Zionists NEEDED an event.

It's always the way, you know this, and I know this. You know that US elites NEEDED an event to invade and murder in Iraq, and the event can even be a non event. Doesn't matter. All you do is stick by your position, and make sure you are such an elite, that you are above the law.

So, no Reich, no Hitler, no Hitler no SS, no SS, no 'holocaust', and no holocaust, no Jewish state.

Wasn't just the land that they would win, if World Zionism could help the event along.

But the financing off it...forever.

After all, it needs some sort of income, where is it going to come from? How about through the never ending pay backs from Germany, which included discount on two ships, in 2009?

I would charge World Zionists with firstly further provoking anti semitism in Europe. It existed. They were happy to fan the flames, until it caught fire.

I would charge World Zionists with doing much to block Jewish migration out of Europe.

For the love of god, people need to wake up a bit, get a bit smarter.

When the Godfather of Zionism, Theodore Hertzl admits that in order for the aims of Zionism to progress, Jews MUST SUFFER, I believe the godfather of Zionism.

Is it just a coincidence that not many years later, he got his wish, the Jews did suffer, and Zionism had it's state.

I am of the view that World Zionists were complicit in any suffering, death, and maltreatment, suffered by the Jews, at the hands of the SS, because they NEEDED a galvanising event.

They needed Dem Jews to suffer.

So that they could steal their suffering and get their quasi socialist state.

And remember that conflict between Zionist Jews and non, that I spoke of before?

It is my conclusion that the Jews that were sacrificed up would have been mainly working class and lower middle class non Zionist Jews.

Jack

 

So, you are saying that you can evidence me a legit doc stating


Number Of Jews Exterminated On Purpose - Six Million. Signed - Hitler and all the top men.

Which belief is it you think 'Jews were targetted for'? Do you think people didn't like Jews due to Judaism, the faith? Do you think that was the lightening rod for the SS, that these people were not 'Christians'?

And did Hitler really think that the working class Jew that mended boots for a living, had anything to do with German defeats?

Do you mean he blamed ALL Jews, or some Jews?

If you are so sure that the figure of six million exterminated is accurate, why does it alter dramatically, so often, apart from in people's minds, where it is locked at this figure?

Remember, they NEEDED it to be as shocking or sound as shocking, as possible.

The more shocking, the more chance of their Zionist state, and the more money and European sympathy would be lobbed at it.

Again, I must emphasise, that I am not endorsing German NS, nor denying that were was great persecution and wrong doing of many people, including Jews. However, I think accuracy is key.

I mean, you might be happy to concede that the US did wrong in Vietnam, yet if somone said that soldiers ate babies, you would want that addressed, would you not?

Of course.

And if the source that said soldiers ate babies, also said and showed a lot of other evidence that was also BS and made up, how long would you keep trusting the source?

'At the end of the war it was claimed that the Dachau and Bergen-Belsen camps in Germany (from where the horrific pictures of scores of dead bodies emanated) had operating gas chambers; and that in camps in Poland, Jews had been killed in “steam chambers” or had been skinned to make lamp shades, gloves and their body fat made into soap.

All of these horror stories have in the subsequent years been refuted by all serious scholars, including the leading Jewish scholar on the issue, Raul Hilberg (who in 1998 was a Professor of Political Science at the University of Vermont, and author of the world famous book “The Destruction of the European Jews“). '

Do you see?

They were even charging money for people to cry over real bars of soap, at one their holocaust museum franchises.

Don't you find that rather horrible?


Jack

 

Some may not believe the facts of history and believe what they want to believe but the Jews that experienced the holocaust and lost most of their family in German run concentration camps certainly believe. You don't have to convince them of anything. They know what they experienced.

 

Yes.

I don't doubt for a second that conditions were harsh.

There is no arguement from me there.

Not merely for interned Jews.

The NS loved to 'label' people - literally.

That is why people should be wary of putting labels on people that have no voice to answer back.

For instance, the black triangle was issued to those that the Reich considered to be 'workshy'.

These included the mentally ill, and the physically handicapped.

The media today have demonised these groups in Britain to the degree that an actual group going by that name has formed, to oppose the systematic demonisation that exists in our very Gov, aimed against those groups.

Awful that they should even need to exist, in this day and age.

But you would find many a right wing American who would not give a s*** about the mentally ill and the disabled, and would happily let them die and starve. Their constant attacks on such people, how do you think it must feel to be them?

Homosexuals were given the pink triangle.

The Reich believed that a gay German man could be 'cured'. That thinking lived on by the way, even today, you will find those that believe this. That it is a fault, that can be cured, through science.

Of course it cannot, and nor should it be, but among all the inmates, the homosexuals often suffered among the most.

They were bullied by the guards, and also by other prisoners, including Jews (they won't show you this in Spielberg films though).

The most bizarre experiments were often carried out on gays.

And here is a double whammy.

Guess what happened to many of them at the end of WW2?

After all that?

They were put in prison again....for being gay.

So, you see, the narrative of a thing is never always as clean cut as one may think.

Jack