Whatever happened to Left Liberalism?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Christopher Binetti, Aug 15, 2020.

  1. Christopher Binetti

    Christopher Binetti Newly Registered

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    Do people still believe in Left Liberalism in America anymore? It seems that the Demaortica Party and the mainstream media has driven left liberals into exile. Do you think that people know the difference between Progressivism and Left Liberalism anymore? I am an academic and have been told quite clearly to not cause trouble by trying to get people to remember Left Liberalism's principles. I am trying to get a group of intellectuals, academics, and politically-active people together to revive Left Liberalism in America.
    Left Liberalism can be defined as-
    Free speech fro everyone, even bad people.
    A healthy respect for capitalism.
    Civil rights for everyone, even people with weak interest groups.
    Less corporate ownership of the media.
    An emphasis on all forms of social injustice, including socio-economic and not just racial injustice.
    A commitment to real diversity and inclusion, including ideological diversity.
    A commitment to civil liberties.
    A fierce opposition to riots and violence, even progressive riots and violence.
    Not forcing everyone to pay for abortions.
    There is more stuff, but this is a good definition for now.
     
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  2. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Classic liberalism wasn't left or right, it was a reaction against the tyranny of European monarchies.
    Aspects of classic liberalism are parts of the left, and the right, it's just that each claimed different parts.

    Both are supposed to be for free speech, but both, in their own ways, seem to not like it very much. Personally, I love free speech, and I wish there were more of it on this forum. For example, I can't call someone stupid on this forum just after they gave me incontrovertible evidence of stupidity.
    Both are supposed to like capitalism, but both, in their own ways, hinder it. Dems are actually for capitalism, but we say there needs to be a cop on the beat.
    The left introduced the Civil rights bill, but when it was passed, more republicans voted for it ( they were liberal republicans, a rare breed these days, and and dems that didn't were the southern blue dogs, not liberal at all. In other words, liberals from both parties voted for it)
    Less corporate ownership of the media? Sounds nice, but how is that even possible? Not gonna happen when corporatism infects both parties.
    No one on the right or left supports violence, unless you are Trump, who has actually verbally spoken in favor of it.
    no one is forcing anyone to pay for abortions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  3. CWV

    CWV Well-Known Member

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    Wow. It only took one reply to turn this thread into a lie about Trump.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  4. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    What lie was that?

     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  5. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for this post.

    Many conservatives have been largely vanquished from academic conversation about liberalism (small "l"). It wasn't difficult to see what might happen next, and is now happening. Cancel culture Progressives are coming for the Classical Liberals. They are also apparently attacking anyone who disagrees with "whatever" they think. What do they think and what is their solution? I have yet to figure out what replaces free speech, once all dissenters are silenced. 1984?

    I was just reading that a well-known Marxist professor has been "cancelled" from speaking on campus by the NY Democratic Socialists of America because he believes that Cultural Marxism is too narrow to succeed as a movement and wants to bring socio-economic class disparities back into the conversation.

    We are certainly in a period of upheaval and unrest with many balls up in the air. It's hard to sort out all of the seemingly disjointed political puzzle pieces, but it is time for the thought leaders to stand up against any and all current attempts to banish free speech. :juggle:

    upload_2020-8-15_4-24-43.png

    upload_2020-8-15_4-27-27.png
     
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  6. cirdellin

    cirdellin Banned

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    There does not appear to be any ideology anymore other than that things HAVE to change.

    When people are asked for practical solutions they either go quiet or say things have to change even louder.

    I never would have supported Sanders but he had clear ideas and this is why his party worked so diligently to remove him. Practical ideas can be tested but platitudes can not.
     
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  7. RodB

    RodB Well-Known Member Donor

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    This sounds fairly accurate.

    The drive for power is greater than the drive for policy. The drive for power is insatiable. And if power suddenly disappears it makes you go berserk. The liberal left of the 70s has been gradually eroding as you describe but fell off into the abyss in November 2016. Ever since, rational policies were thrown out of the window and the Democrats/left have just been foaming at the mouth and becoming rabid in any way that popped out of their brain.
     
  8. Antiduopolist

    Antiduopolist Well-Known Member

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    Liberals were never the left.

    Liberals are the OTHER conservative faction.

    Liberals: Pepsi Conservatives
     
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  9. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Please inform me as to how Republicans are against free speech...
    In what context did Trump speak in favor of violence?
     
  10. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Republicans support Trump and Trump definitely doesn't like free speech. I didn't say Republicans are against free speech, I said that they don't like it, and I made the same accusation against democrats. Not all republicans, not all Democrats. There are many examples of Trump not liking free speech. Note every time someone criticizes him he attacks those who are critical. Not in a polite way, but in a mean, vicious, and sometimes vulgar, way. But, with Trump, I will take that even farther, I am claiming that Trump is 'against' free speech. He is not just 'not liking free speech' he is against free speech. Yes, and a number of Universities cancelled speeches by persons with a radical message, and, like Bill Maher, I'm critical of this cancel culture. But, Trump goes way beyond this. Anytime a president says of the free press, 'You are the enemy of the people" and you support Trump doing this, you cannot claim you are a supporter of free speech. To make such a declaration is anti-American. Trump has called reporters 'scum', he has threaten, or alluded to, taking away broadcast licenses. No president I know of in history has called reporters 'scum' or alluded to taking away broadcast licenses ( which he couldn't do if he wanted to, he does not have that authority ). Note that Trump is colluding with Louis Dejoy, the postmaster general, to sabotage the US Postal service, with the obvious objective of delaying and/or preventing, mail in votes. This is not only anti-American, it might be criminal.

    https://lawandcrime.com/2020-electi...f-post-office-removing-mail-sorting-machines/
    https://nbcmontana.com/news/local/dozens-of-montana-usps-drop-boxes-removed
    https://www.wweek.com/news/2020/08/...has-removed-mailboxes-in-portland-and-eugene/
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/08/07/postal-service-investigation-dejoy/

    The above are text book tin pot dictator tactics, Trump is definitely against the most core American value there is, it's called Democracy.
    I started a thread on how Trump is, via his appointment of Louis Dejoy as postmaster general, sabotaging the USPS, and it's criminal, if you ask me.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...inted-by-trump-is-sabatoging-the-usps.576991/

    You have a right to say any thing you wish, you have a right to criticize and complain about the free press, but if declaring the free press 'the enemy of the people" you are not espousing an American value, you have left the realm of having the right to speak your mind to supporting an anti-American value, and your patriotism becomes fair game. And, you have a right to be unpatriotic, but I have the right to criticize you on that point. Why? Because America needs a vigorous, thriving, free press, regardless of whether any one person likes the message or not, regardless of it being accurate or not. Note that 'criticism' doe not equal "against', but declaring the free press as the 'enemy of the people' that does equal 'against free speech' because to declare the free press 'the enemy of the people' is unpatriotic. If you don't like what the message is, bitch and moan to your heart's content, but support their right to say it, don't declare they are 'the enemy of the people', but, whether you like it or not, the only thing standing between tyranny and you is a thriving, vigorous, free press (your 'gun' will not defend you against government tyranny, that's a myth. No, only a free press will defend you against tyranny. Note that the free press is critical of Trump, who exhibits authoritarian tendencies. He needs to be called out on it, when he does. The press is your best friend. No, they don't always get it right, but that is beside the point. Even egregious magazines such as National Enquirer have a right to do their thing, but if you go the NE route, expect to be called out on it, and they are, they are now known as a tabloid, which comes with a stigmatized reputation. But, calling a magazine a tabloid is not 'anti free speech' it's just criticism. ). Do I really need to link to examples of Trump declaring the free press as 'the enemy of the people', I mean, he's said it many times.

    As for Trump, and violence, I already linked to videos of Trump condoning violence, in another comment, but I will link to it again.

     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  11. Lucifer

    Lucifer Well-Known Member

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    Well that definitely disqualifies Trump.
     
  12. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Before there can be any real discussion on these topics, they need to be defined. Right off the bat, the definition of liberalism comes into question. My point is that we don't all have the same definitions, and we have a tendency to over-generalize when we use such terms as labels for groups of people. In that sense, it's good that your definition is provided. However, parts of that definition need to be fleshed out--for example, what would you call a "healthy respect for capitalism"? What examples?

    And before there can be any civil discussion, we need to recognize that using terms like "mainstream media" triggers emotional responses and sets a stage for partisan flame wars. Same with the idea of civil liberties and the mention of riots and violence. All of that is fuel for the fire.

    Maybe an anecdote to start the discussion, or ask the questions one at a time. My first thought was that the conservatives and the liberals from twenty years ago have disappeared. I keep thinking about those ideologies just faded away and left us with the rabid sense of us/them. I'd love a discussion about that kind of stuff, but the OP seems to be a list of complaints about all those thems in society.

    Can we narrow the focus? At least to get things started?
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Dude, all Trump has done is complain same as every president since Washington. Criticizing the press is not the same trying to end it ditto speech. There are only two presidents in history that ever actually tried to do something about a free press, Obama and Wilson, Obama tried to charge Rosen with a fraudulent crime, wire tapped the AP. Trump has done nothing even remotely close to either. And please I didn't ask you if he done it, I asked about the context.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  14. Sleep Monster

    Sleep Monster Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who is being forced to pay for abortions? Certainly not the taxpayers. Ever heard of the Hyde Amendment?

    Liberals haven't gone anywhere. We're right here.
     
  15. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    The downfall of left liberalism can be marked with their abandonment of civil liberties. I remember when I idolized men like Kennedy for their profound understanding and belief in this. They were for small government and understood that government was antiethical to the concept of freedom.

    Today's left embraces authoritarianism, even more so than the crony capitalist corporate loving right. Today's left loves socialism/communism/Marxism (all authoritarian constructs) and believes because of their own irrational fears they have a right to infringe upon others rights. They justify these beliefs using terms like "the greater good", "efficiency" and "for the children".

    So yes, they have all but disappeared.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
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  16. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    Given the tenor and context of the OP, I'm confident that 'classic liberalism' is being used, ie., the reaction against European Monarchial rule, i.e., free and open society, one man one vote, free speech, free trade, rule of law ( as opposed to rule of men )etc. Concepts of right versus left weren't fully manifested at that time, it was freedom versus tyranny. Liberalism meant free and open society, rule of law, etc.

    When Steve Schmidt, a conservative, says that Trump is against 'liberal democracy', he's not talking about leftism, he's talking about classic liberalism.
     
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  17. Patricio Da Silva

    Patricio Da Silva Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's absolutely false. Democratics in general, even democratic socialists, eschew authoritarianism and all of it's hues, hence the ascription 'democratic'.
    But, I'm not a socialist, and dem socialist are not classic socialists, either.

    But, on the right, those who support Trump are backing authoritarian rule.

    I repeat a prior post, #10 above:

    No, the right is for authoritarianism, by supporting Trump. The only ones supporting true conservativism, freedom, and the like are the Lincoln Project, 43 staff pac against Trump, and Repubs Against Trump, these three pacs can claim they are against authoritarianism, but not anyone who supports Trump, for the stated reason.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  18. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    I agree that this cancel culture can get out of hand. It can also be an effective tool of expression. When Kaepernick took a knee protesting police brutality, people were enraged and threatened to stop watching NFL games. When Dick's Sporting Goods announced they would stop selling guns, people said they would stop buying anything from them. It's become a tool of politics to silence and smear contrary opinions. It's not just a problem from the Left.

    One important thing regarding the professor--he wasn't actually cancelled. He made a decision to not give his speech. That doesn't mean he has no other venue to speak. But yeah, this racial stuff is taking a very different route than what Prof. Reed would like to see. I agree that it's getting out of hand in some ways.
     
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  19. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That was my interpretation as well. Small "l" liberal, as in a free and liberal country, versus capital "L", as in a partisan left-leaning Liberal.
     
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  20. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    I agree up to the point where we go into the protests/riots and the abortion issue.
     
  21. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Free speech is not without consequences. Kaepernick had a right to take a knee as long as it is/was not against his job contract with the NFL, and/or his free speech while "on the clock" doesn't hurt his employer's profits. The potential consequence of his exercise of free speech is that some sport fans may not purchase tickets.

    The Dick's Sporting Goods decision on guns is similar, but they are the company so they have the authority to make the decision of what to sell or not. Their employees didn't independently decide whether or not they each wanted to sell guns to people. Still, customers had a choice to continue to shop there or not, based on a management decision.

    I don't see either of those examples as attempts to silence people, like the stir with the NY Democratic Socialists and Professor Reed. I did read that the professor decided not to go ahead with the speech because he didn't want to be bothered by a loud, noisy and disruptive protest. So it was his decision, but the decision was made in response to the threat of student protesters not wanting him to be allowed to speak. People should be able to speak on campus with the same potential "consequence", which is that some people may boycott and not attend the speech. The students effectively prevented him from speaking due to their intimidation, even though he made the final decision to "cancel himself" from that speaking engagement.
     
  22. LoneStarGal

    LoneStarGal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There is a Progressive movement, but some reasonable Classic Liberals do still exist. The OP's note is correct, that it appears that the DNC and the left-wing media don't cover moderate liberal ideas, so that "middle" seems to have disappeared.

    I think that is exacerbated by many Trump supporters and much of the general right-wing rhetoric today which does not distinguish a difference between anyone left-of-center capitalists and the Far Left neo-Marxists. That may be a defensive, knee-jerk reaction of the right to feeling snubbed and "silenced" by even centrist liberal attitudes for quite some time, particularly since 2008.

    So Conservatives have been saying, "The Liberals are trying to silence us," and now we see the Liberals saying, "The Far Left Progressives are trying to silence us." It will be interesting to see how the Cancel Culture's battle for power works out.
     
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  23. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Ok, but isn't that the same as Kaepernick's being allowed to protest without consequence if fans boycott the NFL? Are we making a public vs private distinction? What we see is an attempt to block ideas coming from both sides of the political divide. I see that as part of the cancel culture.

    I do believe it's wrong to shout down speakers and prevent others from hearing. At the same time, it brings a lot of attention to Reed, and those who never heard of him may sneak off and listen to him on a Ted Talk or on one of his other videos.

    However, I do think this brings up a problem that needs to be discussed. I do think both sides in the Reed issue need to be heard.
     
  24. Adfundum

    Adfundum Moderator Staff Member Donor

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    Yes, I agree with that--as long as we're assigning blame to the left and right equally. I would also tie this back a bit further in time--back to about the 1980's and the legitimization of divisive politics as SOP.
     
  25. TedintheShed

    TedintheShed Banned

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    No, it's 100% accurate.The designation of "democratic' is irrelevant. 50% + 1 vote does not at all eschew the authoritarian bent, as the right believes the same thing.

    au·thor·i·tar·i·an
    /əˌTHôrəˈterēən/
    adjective
    1. favoring or enforcing strict obedience to authority, especially that of the government, at the expense of personal freedom.

    This is exactly what the vast majority of today's leftist believe. Obedience to government at the expense of personal freedom, usually using the justification of security.

    Today, the United States is ran by two authoritarian parties. They are two side of the same coin.

    Lastly, I edited out your whataboutism on Trump because it wasn't relevant to my post. I know Trump is an authoritarian. This thread was about the left. Start a thread about Trump and I'll likely agree. But I
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020

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