What's your opinion on invading Iraq in the first place?

Discussion in 'Diplomacy & Conflict Resolution' started by JohnConstantine, May 14, 2012.

  1. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I believe that argument is a red herring for the Cause of anarchy instead of the goodness of Order and that form of States' rights.
     
  2. loving grace

    loving grace New Member

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    Took the thread over by forfeit, not any semblance of a coherent idea.
     
  3. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    None.................
     
  4. loving grace

    loving grace New Member

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    Now, THAT's a tricky response, there, Albert. Are you agreeing with me on the others' posts or are you insinuating I have no coherent ideas? :) If you think I don't, you should engage what I have written. If you do, your post-industrial sarcasm is well good and as it should be from Espania. How's the weather and the Jamon Iberico de Bellota?

    :)
     
  5. danielpalos

    danielpalos Banned

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    I think it was a waste of our exorbitantly expensive superpower, and the Peoples' time and money; except for the wealthy who seem to have made a decent profit as merchants of a Cause of mass destruction.

    Our wars on the abstractions of crime, drugs, poverty, and terror cannot provide for the general welfare and the common defense since they require a warfare-state and not a welfare-state.

    With such mediocre public policies on the part of wealthier politicians, is it any wonder some politicians prefer the command economics of a warfare-state on a for profit basis and where it only takes money to make more money. Is it a coincidence that we have an all volunteer military and high unemployment for the least wealthy.

     
  6. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    I was agreeing with you.
     
  7. Albert Di Salvo

    Albert Di Salvo New Member

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    Jamon Iberico de Bellota is bad for my cholesterol. The weather is mediterranean.
     
  8. Ivan88

    Ivan88 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    The war against Vietnam, Panama, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Libya etc. were all designed to weaken America so that another power can take over the world.
     
  9. StephenKnight

    StephenKnight New Member

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    I think it was the right thing to do. Maybe not the politically or economically smart thing in hindsight, but Saddam Hussein was a very evil dictator, and no one else cared enough to remove him. You never know how wars will play out, and in hindsight we can say the war may have not been worth it... But for anything else that could be said, I'd rather take Iraq as it is today than Iraq as it may have been if Saddam Hussein was allowed to remain in power.

    EDIT: For the first question, was the war itself wrong, that is up to your own definition of justified war, pre-emptive war, whether you need a full Congressional declaration of war, whether it is the United States responsibility to act whatsoever, or whether only the United Nations has the authority to declare that war. Again, for myself, I think it was the right thing to do. If there is a really bad dictator, and no one else has the capability or willingness to remove him, it is our responsibility to act. The war itself clearly had some missteps and blunders, but that sort of thing happens in every war.
     
  10. SiliconMagician

    SiliconMagician Banned

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    As far as I'm concerned we were already at war with him for 10 years.

    How many more decades were we going to be enforcing no fly zones and embargoes while the UN went behind our backs and allowed Oil for Food scandals and other fraudulent violations of UN resolutions to occur?

    The reason the rest of the world(basically Europe) is angry at the deposition of Hussein is because he was one of thier best customers. Especially the French who sold him nuclear power plants and weapons.
     
  11. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    America armed Iraq more than anyone I believe. The French and the Germans were also culprits. And Europe in terms of the regimes were not mad, Britain got involved along with a number of European nations. Any reasons for consternation generally comes from the people, and a lot of the time with good reason.

    For me, I would support the Iraq war if the companies who were paid billions made a genuine effort to rebuild Iraq. Also it really saddened me and undermined the mission to see torture and mistreatment of prisoners, and most notably the use of WP in densely populated areas. I think the support of the clerical Dawa party was a mistake for obvious reasons, only perpetuating issues between Sunnis and Shias.

    Basically if everything had gone smoothly, and humanitarian promises had been kept and peace could have been achieved... but that's just not realistic.
     
  12. bobgnote

    bobgnote New Member

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    Saddam Hussein was a CIA client-asset, since 1958, when he was stashed in Egypt, after a failed coup attempt.

    Saddam Hussein reacted to American hegemony, in the same way as UBL. The US hegemonic bosses and their American idiots just can't get the hang, of what is going on, but see how the CIA and MI6 supported the Shah, 1953, to privatize Iran's oil? GW Bush wanted the same, for Saddam!

    GHW poppy got cold feet, on the road, to Basra, told the Iraqis to revolt, but they didn't see REPUBLICAN TREACHERY, in GHW, so they got whacked, by the REPUBLICAN GUARD, while occupying coalition troops just watched, while Poppy Bush ate popcorn.

    www.heartson.com/Politics

    GW Bush was connected to the bin Ladens, by oil and scams, so he was well-aware, of UBL's maneuvers, BEFORE HE WAS PRESIDENT. He is even suspected of funding misconduct, to assist AQ, but Obamney won't investigate this, OR GW's suppression of CIA and world intel and an FBI investigation into UBL and Saudi Arabia and proper investigation, of Moussaoui.

    http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/s0606/chapter4.htm

    Of course, AFTER the 911 attack happened, GW and Cheney and Bolton and Powell lied a load, to get the 2nd war, so the US could privatize Iraq's oil and incite a big, old INSURGENCY.

    Since so many of you are in awe, of the Republicans and Republicrats, you just aren't paying attention, to how in 2002, a book called DAY OF DECEIT came out, when former Navy officer Robert Stinnett's FOIA lawsuit got the Navy, to reveal, how FDR stifled all intel, into Pearl Harbor AND suppressed all alert procedures, to maximize casualties, so the Phillipines fell, and the US didn't have enough battleships, at Guadalcanal, where the Navy ate death, at the Battle of Iron Bottom Sound, and the campaign dragged on, for months.

    Not enough of you oppose the drug war, either. Psst! In January 2013, here come the BUDGET CUTS and the likely collapse, of western financial institutions, which built up another load of bubbles, based on waste, fraud, abuse, derivatives, the Euro, and banksterism! Do ya think?

    GW sure learned, from FDR, didn't he. FDR signed the Hemp Stamp Tax Act of 1938, when it passed, in 15 minutes, since the Republicrats ALWAYS like to beat out the 1st-team fascists, the Republicans, at starting and continuing wars, but then, when the price of real estate bubbles up, and the cartels get going, since crime pays, Republicrats support welfare, to put some sugar, on the poo, of unconstitutional hegemonic domination.

    Gee, heard of SPARTACUS, Going for the Glory, 2013? I don't think those slaves have a chance, for another season, after this. What do you guys think?

    What I think is our current global warming temperatures aren't as hot, as during the Roman Warm Period OR the Minoan Warm Period OR the Medieval Warm Period OR during the Holocene Thermal Optimum, but no worries!

    GHGs are off the hook, rising faster and more variously, than at any other time, in geologic history. We will see an end, to the Quarternary Ice Age, once and for all. Of course, we will also see an end to all desirable sea life and many land species, and Mass Extinction Event 6 will happen, right in front of humans, who aren't paying attention, when guys like FDR and GW Bush do a whole lot of dirt, and guys like the Obamney Twins are hippity-hopping and flippity-flopping, for President, and the US government will be a mass of gridlock and boondoggle, going into the 2013 budget crisis.

    Nice work, Obamneys. But who can't see sarcasm or urgency, you people need to pay better attention, to your TV, since you all aren't reading anything cogent.
     
  13. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    America armed Iraq more than anyone I believe. The French and the Germans were also culprits. And Europe in terms of the regimes were not mad, Britain got involved along with a number of European nations. Any reasons for consternation generally comes from the people, and a lot of the time with good reason.

    The chief Arms supplier of the Regime of Saddam Huessein was the Former Soviet Union, Google Saddams Arms and equipement. The only US made equipment is a couple of batteries of obsolescent hawk anti aircraft missles supplied him during the Iraq/Iran war. His tanks APC and Artillery were all Russian made. Hell even their tactical dctrine was forged in Russia. His airforce consisted of Mirage jets from France and various Migs and Sukhoi aircraft the latter two from the Soviet Union.

    Way to go Bob you got essentailly everything wrong.
     
  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    And even with all the "UN Sanctions", he still managed to slaughter tens of thousands of his own citizens, especially the Kurds.

    I wonder how many of these people would have been saying the same thing after the destruction of the Hitler government, and finding the concentration and death camps filled with Jews, Romani and other "undesireables".

    To me, the single most powerfull reason for going in was found in mass graves scattered all over the country.
     
  15. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    I should've been more succinct. When silicon Magic mentioned being at war for ten years and naming France... I instantly thought about the fiasco of the Iran war and the Gulf. I'd be very suprised to see more support for Iraq coming from any country other than American during the Iraq Iran war. America wanted it, after all.

    The support supposedly includes several billion dollars of "economic aid", the sale of technology, and non-US origin weaponry, as well as intelligence.

    He may have used Russian weapons, but guess who was buying them.
     
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    This is where I love when people with only a little bit of knowledge start to speak up.

    Actually, all ties with Iraq were cut off in 1967 after the Six Day War. All embassies, diplomatic relations, and other connections between the US and Iraq were cut for 12 years, before Zbigniew Brzezinski decided it would be a good idea to open communications again so that Iraq could be used as a buffer against Iran. And this was done under the orders of President Carter.

    But like most of these kinds of posts, this is just a mish-mash of conspiracy theories, half-truths and conjectures that have almost no basis in fact.
     
  17. expatriate

    expatriate Banned

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    who sent Rumsfeld to meet with Saddam?
     
  18. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the vast majority of their weapons and equipment were of Soviet manufacture, or of Soviet design from other Warsaw Pact nations, as well as China.

    There were some of limited number that the US sold to them prior to the Invasion of Kuwait (20 M-60 tanks for example), but this is far outnumbered by Warsaw Pact-Chinese equipment (1,500 Chinese Type 59 tanks, 1,000 Soviet Type 72 tanks).

    In reality, the US was never more then a minor supplier of obsolete equipment (a total of 7,000+ Chinese-Soviet tanks, compared to 50 US-UK tanks, 6,500+ Warsaw Pact-Chinese AFV-APCs, compared to less then 500 UK-US-French AFV-APCs). And this continues with their air force. Over 1,000 aircraft, almost all Soviet. In fact, the only US aircraft in their Air Force inventory was the Lockheed JetStar, a small passenger aircraft known to the US Air Force as the C-140.

    [​IMG]

    It is amazing what is discovered when things like looking at equipment inventories is done.
     
  19. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    see post #165
     
  20. Mushroom

    Mushroom Well-Known Member

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    Well, I invite you then to check out this amazing little website:

    http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/page/values.php

    Go in, and check out Arms Exports to Iraq, from 1980-1989. And see what you get. This is the results I come up with:

    China: $5.05 billion
    France: $4.6 billion
    US: $201 million
    USSR: $18.2 billion

    So I guess you are surprised. In fact, looking down this list, the US even falls below Egypt and Brazil in exporting arms and equipment to Iraq, the major shipments from the US consisting of Bell helicopters.

    So kindly provide other evidence, or learn to do your own research. All you are doing is throwing around incorrect personal beliefs, with absolutely no research to back them up.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war

    Even when you include the non-military economic aid, the US still falls far short of what France, China and the USSR sent to Iraq. Oh, and before you go on about the US selling Iraq "Soviet Equipment", that did not happen. What existed was a program known as "Bear Spares", where the US sold or assisted other countries in selling excess equipment and spare parts (or manufacturing them) to Iraq.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1413.htm

    This my friend is what is known as "research".
     
  21. JohnConstantine

    JohnConstantine Active Member

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    OK but I said support. I'll admit technically I was wrong and jumped the gun with the first post. But in the second I stress support. You see Russia wasn't even in favour of it, they were officially opposed to the conflict. And America seems to be the main driving force in terms of intelligence, not only demonstrably encouraging the war but providing vast amounts of training and tactical advice. When you look at the origins of the chemical exports Un inspectors confirm the material recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program was from the US. China seems to be neutral because it sold weapons to both countries and was pretty much just cashing in. The weapons sold by Russia were mainly purchased before the war started and not in direct support.

    So in terms of political, financial, military and intelligent support. I still think America was at the forefront. But you're right I should have thought it through a little more.
     
  22. TheTaoOfBill

    TheTaoOfBill Well-Known Member

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    I was 16. I saw that Bush was not taking peace for an answer. Even when the UN inspectors turned up nothing he was still beating the war drums. And terrified that I would be drafted in 2 years if the war started. So I was VERY against the war.
     
  23. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I was against both incursions. Maybe because of Vietnam but I also believe in one of the early Founder ideas, ally with none, trade with all.
     
  24. TheTaoOfBill

    TheTaoOfBill Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain the ally with none part?
     
  25. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When you make allies with one country, you automatically inherit their enemies. In practice it is not common but Switzerland has done successfully it for centuries.
     

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