When Abortion is exploitation, and the nature of "Choice"

When you listen to the most vocal Pro-Choice advocates, they talk about abortion as if it were some great thing that women enthusiastically want to choose.
But if you talk to the women actually getting abortions, a different picture emerges.

Many women - very well probably the majority of women - who get abortions really don't want to get an abortion, but they feel pushed into it, by life circumstances; or in many cases people - fathers, mothers, boyfriends.

If one can draw an analogy, it is a lot like the situation of poverty-stricken woman being forced into prostitution (which still exists in some parts of the world). That is not what she wants to do, but is what she is pushed into doing, due to her financial state and life pressures.
Or a single mother forced to sell her daughters into prostitution, or off into marriages with a much older man, who in many cases might already have other wives.

This isn't mere just a "choice", it is exploitation.

Imagine telling a woman who is on the verge of starvation, "It's okay, you can eat your own baby. We'll allow you to do that."
Is that really a very merciful and sympathetic thing to do? (I just mean for the mother, never mind the child)

If a wife gets into serious personal debt, and then she finally tells her husband about it, ashamed of what she did, and in response he tells her "It's okay, just sell your wedding wing", what do you think the woman is going to feel about that?
How about a boyfriend who suggests pimping his girlfriend as a prostitute on the streets as a solution to their financial difficulties? You think the woman is going to feel her boyfriend loves her? That he is empowering her by allowing her to make a choice?

Suppose abortion were illegal in a certain country. What about a doctor telling a woman he will perform an abortion on her, knowing that the woman begged and cried not to have to get an abortion but her abusive partner demanded it, throwing her against the wall, screaming at her, threatening to leave her if she does not do it, intimidating her, telling her that he'll withdraw all financial support.
Is this doctor "doing her a favor"? Is the woman being "empowered", "helped", and "given choice"?

It's important to keep in mind that many women who get an abortion don't really want an abortion, they do not really want to abort their unborn baby, but they almost have no other choice, they are driven to it by circumstances beyond their control, many will say they felt they had no choice.

This often isn't the wonderful thing that gives women "choice" and empowers them. This often is not the optimal solution that lets the woman do what she really wants to do.

There is a reason many feminists at one time were against abortion.
(Susan B. Anthony, as one example. In the US they used to issue one dollar coins with the face of Susan B. Anthony on them. It was not uncommon to see them in circulation)

Women oftentimes get abortion due to the needs of men. A husband, father, or boyfriend tells them that they need to get an abortion. The woman is pushed into it. That's not the choice she would want to make if she were in charge, if she were permitted to make whatever choice she wanted to.

Abortion is not always respectful of the woman's dignity and choice. Very often there is someone else making the choice for her.
I read a few supposed "Pro-Choicers" in this very forum (including women) who say that a 13-year-old girl who gets pregnant should be FORCED into getting an abortion whether that's the decision she wants to make or not. That alone tells us plenty.
So much for respecting HER choice, honoring the decision she wants.

 

LOL, most of that make-believe unproved crap is you rehashing all your failed posts......

And you hilariously say "Very often there is someone else making the choice for her.""

So you ARE Pro-Choice" ? You are if you view that as wrong LOL...

 

Isn't it true, or don't you believe, that making a woman choose abortion can be worse than making her choose no abortion?

Making a woman kill her baby is no worse than forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy? Do you actually believe that? I don't think anyone actually does (or if they claim they do, it's just insincere phoney grandstanding. I don't know, maybe there are some radical feminists who actually believe that)

 

UNCHERRY PICKED POST:LOL, most of that make-believe unproved crap is you rehashing all your failed posts......

And you hilariously say "Very often there is someone else making the choice for her.""

So you ARE Pro-Choice" ? You are if you view that as wrong LOL...

Taking away her ability to CHOOSE is the worst thing.

No, that's why I NEVER SAID IT....if you have to put words in other's mouths it means you have , as usual, NOTHING

 

But you concede that taking away her ability to choose one thing (Life) is worse than taking away her ability to choose something else, hypothetically, don't you?


Otherwise, what you said below makes no sense.

You said you DID NOT say that making a woman kill her baby is no worse than forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy, and that that would be putting words in your mouth, which means that you DO believe that making a woman kill her baby (pushing her into abortion) IS WORSE than forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy.

Maybe you just don't want to explicitly say that.

 

NO, I clearly stated : Taking away her ability to CHOOSE is the worst thing.



NOW, face the rest of the post where you had to use your imagination once again:

kazenatsu:""Making a woman kill her baby is no worse than forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy? Do you actually believe that?




FoxHastings: ""No, that's why I NEVER SAID IT....if you have to put words in other's mouths it means you have , as usual, NOTHING ""

 

I see, so you just want to beat around the bush.

Yes, you never said it because you don't want to admit it.

It's like someone asking someone on the witness stand "Did you murder your wife?"
"I never said that"

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
NO, I clearly stated : Taking away her ability to CHOOSE is the worst thing.

So you don't get an answer you like so it's ME beating around the bush ???!!!

You get funnier day to day..

There ya go again....having to pretend you can read people's minds so you can any point at all.....

 

Look up the word mendaciousness.

Your debate style when you get cornered into a pickle seems to be the very definition of that word.

 

I'm certain there are women being forced into abortions. But using that as an excuse to ban abortions is like banning marital sex because some wives are forced to have sex with their husbands. Abusive relationships exist - imbalances of power exist. But we cannot take away women's basic rights in accordance to that.

 

It's one small reason, at least.

It is one argument, even if you don't think it's anywhere close to a complete justification.

That's right, we cannot take away women's rights to protect a smaller number of women's rights.

Just like with prostitution laws, or minimum wage laws, or equal gender pay laws, etc...
Telling a 12 year old girl she can't get married to a 40 year old guy is taking away her rights too. Guess that law has to go too.

 

Thanks for the admission that you're STUMPED

 

First of all, abortion is great thing. But, it is actually those in the anti-abortion camp who speak of it as something women "enthusiastically want to choose" with tjeir misogynistic shaming tactics and emotional arguments.

I hate to break it to you, but women are actuallyncapable of reason and most women who have abortions because theynrationally vonclude they want it. Not because they are pushed into it.

She knows best what is best for her. If she does not want a child, she does not want a child.

It can only be called "exploitation" if some psycho partner forces her to have it.

Dude, what are you even talking about?

Sounds like a very supportive and understanding husband to me.

Reminder that this is the abortion sub.

It already is in far too many of them.

Okay, you've completely lost me.

Abortions are great.

Yes it is!

OK and?

Oh, of course. Because women can never make independent choices and act on their own judgement. They need a man to guide them and everything they do, they do for men. Of course.

Misogyny is over 9000 here.

And you and your allies tell them not to have one. How hard is to let them choose for themselves?

Geez.

This is even worse than any of the previous anti-abortion arguments and those were already very bad as they were.

This is not working, mate.

OK Groomer.

 

And some pro-choicers have insisted to us that "no one is Pro-Abortion".
I'll be sure to quote you the next time someone makes that claim again.

 

Usually we would be talking about teen girls. The family brings her in. It's obvious to everyone the girl is hesitant and reluctant to go through with it, she might even say that she doesn't want to do it, but they push her into it, sometimes even hold her down.

 

Do it.

You cannot force a woman to give birth.

 

She can have a C-section, if she prefers.

Otherwise, let the process naturally happen on its own. Her own body will handle everything naturally and automatically by itself.

We're not making her do anything. Just telling her what she can't do.

Allowing some women to make this "choice" will end up resulting in other women being pushed into it and exploited.

You don't believe a woman should be allowed to work for less than minimum wage, for example, even if she chooses it.
You don't believe women should be allowed to sell their bodies in the streets, under the auspices of a pimp, even if she "chooses" it.

That's not an adequate enough reason enough by itself to ban abortion, but it is one factor.

 

Hmmm your favorite topic..



.

What a load of your usual hogwash....that's a fantasy you have....reality is forcing women to gestate by banning abortion....

 

Funny guy, you.

Why?

Ah, classic authoritarian.

How?

Who said that? I am for laissez-faire capitalism because unlike you I am principled and consistent.

I do and am actually surprised a Conservative prude like you would be for prostitution.

There is no reason to ban abortion.

 

And some Anti-Choicers have insisted that they aren't about punishing women but yet :

"""""""""Maybe STING operations, where she thinks she's getting her "procedure" at an underground clinic, she hops up on the table and spreads her legs, but they insert a red hot spicy suppository.

kazenatsu, May 17, 2022"""""""

 

There are different possible viable ways to handle it. Some involve punishing the woman. Some don't.

Even if the woman is punished, that can STILL prevent women from being exploited.

(Remember the ObamaCare law to penalize people to ensure that they could get access to healthcare? Same type of rationale applies)

 

UNCHERRY-PICKED POST:
And some Anti-Choicers have insisted that they aren't about punishing women but yet :

"""""""""Maybe STING operations, where she thinks she's getting her "procedure" at an underground clinic, she hops up on the table and spreads her legs, but they insert a red hot spicy suppository.

kazenatsu, May 17, 2022"""""""

Thank you for once again reaffirming it's about punishing women....""Some involve punishing the woman.""


YOU have NEVER shown how women having rights exploits them....a preposterous and ridiculous idea that was common 200 years ago....maybe you should catch up...

 

I have. I have given many analogous examples. It is a little bit complicated to explain, and involves resorting to economic concepts.

In the case of ObamaCare, the alleged logic was that penalizing people would push them into buying healthcare. With everyone having to buy healthcare, the reasoning went, the segment of society who was purchasing healthcare would face less economic competition from the segment of society that was not. In one way it is competition that is one factor that forces members of society to try to cut costs.

A similar analogy even exists for abortion. Maybe if one segment of society did not "cheat" and get an abortion, there will be less competition from the female segment of society (financially and in the dating game) and it would put less pressure on other women to abort.

Think about how in competitive sports one athlete doping puts pressure on others to dope too, and then once a few of them are doping, all the athletes have to do it, to be able to maintain any decent chance of keeping up.

 

UNCHERRY-PICKED POST:
And some Anti-Choicers have insisted that they aren't about punishing women but yet :

"""""""""Maybe STING operations, where she thinks she's getting her "procedure" at an underground clinic, she hops up on the table and spreads her legs, but they insert a red hot spicy suppository.

kazenatsu, May 17, 2022"""""""




Thank you for once again reaffirming it's about punishing women....""Some involve punishing the woman.""


YOU STILL have NEVER shown how women having rights exploits them....a preposterous and ridiculous idea that was common 200 years ago....maybe you should catch up...

 

You made this up entirely. I've never once in all my life seen anyone talk about abortion as something exciting that people "enthusiastically" want to have.

Welcome to real life, where sometimes there is no right answer or good choice.

And back on to the Crazytown Express you go. Nobody is "exploiting" women to get abortions. No more than they are exploiting women, or anyone, to get appendectomies or their tonsils removed.

Why would pro-choicers imagine this scenario? Why would you? Are you even putting any thought into these things you're typing?

Nothing wrong with the first example when times are hard for you. A wedding ring is just a material possession. Your second example actually is an example of exploitation. So now I have to wonder why, since you do seem to have a grasp of what it is, you so enthusiastically misrepresent it in the statement from above.

The woman has multiple choices she can make before the abortion happens. She can choose to be with someone else and she can choose to not have the abortion. And lets remember, the flipside of this example also occurs. Is it wrong when it's the flipside? When the husband/partner wants to force her to have the child when she wants to get an abortion? Does that also perturb you?

Again, this is real life where sometimes hard choices must be made and there's no way to win, just lose less. Are you suggesting we somehow pad real life so that the scenarios where these hard choices must be made don't have to occur? Or are you just suggesting we remove one of those hard choice options because it bothers you despite you not being the one having to make the choice in the first place or live with the consequences of any of it?

But you don't want her to be able to choose abortion or someone else to choose abortion for her in the first place. If you have your way, this scenario doesn't exist at all, because the girl would simply be forced to give birth. And forced by people who will never know her or have to deal with any of the circumstances or consequences.