When assessing Trump’s guilt or innocence...

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by robini123, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    When assessing Trump’s guilt or innocence I feel it is wise to also consider if I would come to the same conclusion if he were a Democrat. Any conclusion I come to should for the sake of a logical consistency equality apply to the other side if roles were reversed. With that said I think few Trump supporters would judge a Democrat in a similar situation innocent. I also think that if Trump were a Democrat that few Democrats would be calling for his removal from office.

    Tribalism makes political parties and their supporters predictable.
     
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  2. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    We have no problems calling out RINOs. It really should be CINOs, but the fact is that we are the same with rinos like McCain as the left is with people like Gabbard. They want communism, and we want the government to just have a strong military and the rest of these imbeciles in the federal government need to be fired on the spot.
     
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  3. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    ,,, one should consider that the coup has been in the plans since January 30, 2017.
    Whistleblower attorney tweeted of Trump 'coup,' rebellion

    [​IMG]

    Mark S. Zaid @MarkSZaidEsq


    #coup has started. First of many steps. #rebellion. #impeachment will follow ultimately. #lawyers https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/826255624610729985 …




    Jake Tapper @jaketapper

    .@POTUS fires acting AG Sally Yates for "refusing to enforce a legal order designed to protect the citizens" of US

    [​IMG]



    1,022

    9:54 PM - Jan 30, 2017

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/new...nyKa3WSHc4p2ky8/g20AXsteN&bt_ts=1573086028302

    The dumb guy called it exactly what it was. The geniuses mocked him.
     
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  4. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Impeachment is not a coup. Impeachment is a legal process created by the Founding Fathers. Not sure why Trump supporters are so worked up anyway when the conclusion of the investigation was decided by Republicans the day the impeachment was announced. Hell will freeze over before Republicans in the Senate will vote against Trump. I guarantee that Trump will survive the impeachment.

    With that said it is illogical by my measure of logic to allow one (Trump) with a vested interest in the outcome of an investigation to play any part in the investigation as to do so is to openly invite bias. If Trump were a Democrat using the Office of the President to investigate a prominent Republican political adversary that they may be running against in the next election then the Republicans would be up in arms. Republicans have two sets of rules, one for the “in” group and another for the “out” group... same applies to the left. Both the left and right are rotten to the core with bias.

    Politics is tribal and Machiavellian in that loyalty to party comes befor loyalty to country and the ends justify the means and in this case the means are double standards and the abandonment of previously espoused principles. The right are hypocrites as are the left.

    There is no coup, there is however a very flawed impeachment process that the Republicans knew is seriously flawed yet the Republicans did nothing to fix the problem when they held the House, Senate and the Executive Branch of government, the two branches needed to Amendment the Conclusion.
     
  5. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    If even a fraction of the evidence there is against Trump existed against a Democratic President, I would be demanding their impeachment. Of course, Trump has the added incentive that he's incompetent. And that might not be the same for most Democrats I can think of and who could be President. But I would certainly side with rule of law over partisanship.
     
  6. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask a question of all you repubs that seem to be running around with your heads cut off. If, let's say 5 years ago you found out that Obama did something questionable and you decided to 'turn him in' you would probably be expected to be protected under the whistle blower law. But let's say Obama was putting out some nasty sh-- about you and you're starting to think that one of his goons might do you some harm. You don't quite know what to do. You decide you better talk to a lawyer.

    Here's the question: Would you look up a lawyer that was pro Obama and thought he was the greatest thing since sliced bread or would you look for a lawyer that would have a personal interest in protecting you? I guess there's two questions: If he had said or done some stuff a few years earlier about a coup against Obama, would that have stopped you from retaining him to represent you?

    trump is a sinking ship, enjoy the ride.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  7. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    "I would like you to do us a favor though." Top of page 3, https://www.washingtonpost.com/cont...elensky/4b228f51-17e7-45bc-b16c-3b2643f3fbe0/

    Reader will also find this in the transcript of the July 25 call.

    Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General.· :Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The other thing, there's a lot of.talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me.

    A lot of people, including Trump himself, have overlooked that part of the phone call.
     
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  8. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    The top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, Bill Taylor, told House impeachment investigators last month that Trump directed officials to tie military aid to Ukraine to demands that the country open politically advantageous probes for him, according to a transcript of his testimony made public today.

    It also contains new details about the language Taylor used in describing the White House's attempted quid pro quo with Ukraine that shed light on his level of concern about the matter.

    For example, Taylor said he and others "sat in astonishment" as a White House Office of Management and Budget official said during a July 18 inter-agency call that Trump had ordered a hold on military assistance to Ukraine, according to the transcript.

    Taylor stated in plain and clear language that he felt the military aid to Ukraine had been directly tied to Ukraine opening investigations into the Burisma energy company — .code for Hunter Biden and his father, Trump's likely political opponent in November of next year — as well as a conspiracy theory about alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election.

    "That was my clear understanding, security assistance money would not come until the president [of Ukraine] committed to pursue the investigation," Taylor said, according to the transcript.

    It doesn't get any clearer than that.
     
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  9. Daniel Light

    Daniel Light Well-Known Member

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    Hell, a Democrat would have been toast after the Stormy Daniels story broke.
     
  10. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    A Democrat would have been toast the minute he fired the person who was investigating them and, when asked why, they publicly said "when I fired him, I was thinking about how his investigation of me was nonsense"

    The bar is not just higher for Democrats. There is simply no bar whatsoever in the Republican Party.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think a dem or a repub President in most cases would resign if they got caught doing what Trump did - because they care about their party, Trump only cares about Trump, even Nixon resigned rather then drag his party and the country through this

    I have never seen republican or democrats behave the way republican are currently behaving, it's sad and damaging for our country and the rule of law
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  12. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I read Taylor's testimony, and I just sit here astonished at how Republicans in Congress don't come out in hordes to denounce Trump's actions.

    But I guess that's why Taylor will be the first witness in the public testimony stage: So the rest of America becomes as astonished as I am.
     
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  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the right wants to prevent whistle-blowers from reporting corruption in the government when they see it, that is sad
     
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  14. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Are you an independent? If you are then what you said makes sense. If you are a Democrat or Republican they you are either an exception to the rule or fooling yourself. 20 years of political debate experience has taught me that partisans are predictable, not saying that you are one as I do not know you.
     
  15. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Naw, the left would have minimized it just as so many did with Clinton getting blown while he was president. The left and right both have principles that they selectively apply when it is politically advantageous to do so. Both sides are hypocritical.
     
  16. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    There is no evidence against Trump ,,, just a conspiracy to commit treason by a Democrat operative. He was the same Obama plant involved in the Russian collusion hoax. This is going to be humorous. Your star witness got all his evidence by reading the garbage his fellow traitors leaked to the NY Times. There's a word in intel circles for leaking to the media, then using the print media as evidence. I forgot ,,, but hopefully it is going to be called contempt of court by the Russia collusion hoaxters after Barr gets these traitors in front of the judges they conned.
     
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  17. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    Obama should be tried for spying on millions of Americans. He should have been tried for murder in the death of Brian Terry. He should have been tried for being complicit to mass murder in the deaths at Marjorie Stoneman HS since he and Holder undermined the background check system for school age criminals like Nikolas Cruz. Obama got away with all kinds of crimes ,,, he now gets to watch the oceans rise after he devalued the Martha's Vineyard property so he could afford to by it. But, I didn't think this thread was about Obama.
     
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  18. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    I am a registered Democrat. I don't think I am the exception. And I'm most definitely not "fooling" myself.

    I don't see why registering as a Democrat would "automatically" transform anybody into a partisan hack that would place their political party over their country's interests. I register Democrat because I see nothing in the Republican Party that appeals to me right now. Besides the fact that I want to be able to vote in primaries (can't do that in my state unless you're registered). That doesn't mean I believe that Democrats are always right and Republicans are always wrong. I have voted for Republicans in local elections many times, when they earn my vote. The fact that they are always wrong now is just a historical anomaly that will be corrected once Trump is out of the picture.

    As a matter of fact, I think Independents overvalue themselves. I am not an ideologue, but people must have an ideology. A guide as to how the country should work. Not that the ideology answers all the questions (which is what ideologues believe), but simply a broad view of what is the best path to accomplish what our forefathers wrote in the Preamble to the Constitution. Most independents claim not to have an ideology. I feel that is intellectual laziness.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  19. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Are you for real? There's tons of...

    Look. Let me just say this: The Lindsey Graham rationalization "I won't read the evidence, therefore, it doesn't exist" is not going to convince anybody who is not already a Trump loyalist. And this is not about convincing you or, for that matter, about convincing me. We have both already made up our minds (me by looking at the evidence, you by refusing to see it). This is about convincing the American People. Those who have not followed this closely, but are not blind Trump cultists. And your tactic is, obviously, to believe you and not their "lyin' eyes". I really don't care if you do that, because it's not going to work. But if the right did have something to say about the facts, it would be a shame that they don't say it only because their "idol" has told them to just not believe what they see and hear.

    It would be a disservice to this country if the President's followers are unable to come up with something more compelling than "there is no evidence". But if that's all you got....regardless of anything else.... even if the evidence (that does exist) were not real, or were somehow invalid... your guy would be toast! And he will have received no defense from you.
     
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  20. mitchscove

    mitchscove Well-Known Member Donor

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    That's alot of jabber to say nothing. Present your charges and your evidence. So far we have one guy who leveled two charges represented by lawyers who openly expressed their hatred for Trump, starting 10 days into his term.

    Government parasites hate that Trump campaigned on ending the party they have enjoyed on taxpayers' dime ,,, and, even worse, he won. That in itself is a crime. They hate me and Americans like me for voting for Trump.
     
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  21. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I have no reason to not believe you and if you are as objective as you say you are then you have my respect. I am a tad bit skeptical as it is human nature to overestimate ourselves. The reason I am skeptical is that during my 20 years of political debate it has been exceedingly rare to see an objective Democrat or Republican. It is kind of like a Yeti sighting, we hear about them from time to time but they are all but impossible to prove. I have been studying sociology, psychology and neurology in a nonprofessional capacity to the tune of 20 hours a week for the last 6 years in an attempt to better understand myself and others. My study of human nature has left me quite cynical but that is my cross to bear... as it were. I could go into some of the more disturbing things about human nature I have learned such as the Dunning Kruger Effect, but that is perhaps for another thread or another post. Assuming that you are a straight shooter please forgive my skepticism.

    As for independents, I am one but do not represent any other than myself. I have an ideology that is America centric as opposed to party centric. I agree that independents tend to overestimate themselves but I increase the scope of the claim to encompass all of humanity. We humans are experts at self-delusion.
     
  22. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I think in a similar situation we would never have heard of it.

    Let me give you a counter example. After years of claiming that he didn't have the power to establish a program for dreamers, President Obama ordered the secretary of Homeland Security to establish the DACA program. Obama had neither constitutional or statutory authority to establish the program, or fund it. He just did it anyway. (some) Republicans opposed to the program, and went to the courts to try to stop it, but there was never a serious attempt to impeach him, even though he had clearly committed an impeachable act. So in the interest of logical consistency, should President Obama been impeached?
     
  23. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Not true. Clinton had credible rape accusations against him and he's beloved in the party.
     
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  24. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Charge:
    Bribery

    Evidence:
    Trump: “I would like you to do us a favor, though..."
     
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  25. Capt Nice

    Capt Nice Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for not answering my questions. You are right that this wasn't about Obama.
     

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