When Did Ukraine Become a ‘Critical Ally’?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Ethereal, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Listening to people who talk about Ukraine like it's some kind of important or noble ally is both comical and tragic.

    Naturally, anyone who bothers to think about it for more than five seconds can see that Ukraine is neither important nor noble.

    In reality, it is just an undeveloped, corrupt backwater with an economy that is roughly three times smaller than Nigeria's. And it is about 4,500 miles away from the US.

    Clearly, there is nothing even remotely "critical" about Ukraine to the USA. Ukraine could disappear tomorrow and most Americans would not even notice. Yet Americans are being dragged into a potential war with Russia over this irrelevant country. Why? Why should the average American give two craps about the territorial "integrity" of a country that 99% of Americans probably couldn't find a map? What measurable, tangible benefit does the average American derive from this relationship that justifies its large risks and costs?

    I'll bet you $1.5 billion that you cannot come up with a really good reason to back Ukraine's corrupt government. $1.5 billion, by the way, is the amount of money American taxpayers have sent to Ukraine's government since 2016.

    Just to get an idea what that actually means, just think of this: With $1.5 billion, you could pay for approximately 45,700 Americans to get a college degree.

    So, please explain to me why it's better giving $1.5 billion to a bunch of politicians and bureaucrats in Kiev than sending 45,700 Americans to college.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  2. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    If Russian trolls want to use American tax dollars to pay for education in America, instead of sending it to Ukrainian politicians and bureaucrats, then that must mean Russian trolls want the best for America.
     
  3. stratego

    stratego Well-Known Member

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    The US has no critical ally except for Russia.
     
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  4. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    What a strange comment.
     
  5. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    You have to wonder how many Ukrainians are posting at this forum in an effort to steal more of America's money.
     
  6. stratego

    stratego Well-Known Member

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    The US is powerful. If it has Russia as an ally it doesn't need anyone else
     
  7. modernpaladin

    modernpaladin Well-Known Member

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    We're sposed to be in a big war with Russia. Ukraine is the most likely igniter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  8. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    The US doesn't need anyone else, period. That said, the US should strive to cultivate positive relationships with other countries, including Russia. However, cultivating positive relationships does not mean stealing money from our own tax payers and sending it to foreign politicians and bureaucrats. Any relationship the US enters into should be mutually and equally beneficial. The US relationship with Ukraine is neither mutually nor equally beneficial to Americans. It's a drain on our economy.
     
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  9. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Just one, from my observation.
    I’m just not hiding the fact that I was born in Ukraine.
    I am a US citizen who pays all taxes and dues, so my voice is no different from yours. But some of your posts lead me to think that you might not be in the US. You claim you were in the military, yet your posts suggest you know very little about strategy and importance of military domination. Sometimes you post like someone who has not seen this world.
    Sorry, just stating my opinion based on observations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  10. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    No it’s not. I grew up in Ukraine, raised speaking Russian and Russian invasion based on “protection of Russian speakers” is just silly to me - I was never discriminated against in Ukraine for using Russian. I WAS discriminated against in the United States for being white.
     
  11. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Russia is an economic midget that is a superpower-wanna-be.
    There is no logical benefit to the US to be friends with that country. The only thing that country has going for itself is nukes. Being friends with Pootin because you are afraid of his nukes is like wanting to be friends with a neighborhood bully who has a gun.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  12. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    When Did Ukraine Become a ‘Critical Ally’?

    Only someone sympathetic to Russia would ask such a question.

    "Trump’s mistake in Syria is the unexpected ‘lottery win’ that further strengthened Moscow’s position in the Middle East and undermined America’s prestige as a rational political player and a reliable partner,” raved Mikhail Rostovsky in his article for the Russian newspaper Moskovsky Komsomolets.

    The Post reports, "Kremlin-funded Russian state television has openly sided with Trump throughout the Ukraine scandal and even during the events that led up to it. For months on end, Dmitry , the host of a Sunday news show called “Vesti Nedeli” (or “The Weekly News”) on state-controlled television station Rossiya-24, encouraged Trump’s push for a Ukrainian investigation of former vice president Joe Biden and his son, as well as the groundless theory that Ukraine — not Russia — interfered in U.S. presidential elections in 2016."
     
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  13. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Obviously. That's why you want to steal money from Americans and send it to the old country. Your loyalties are still divided.
     
  14. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine's economy is much smaller than Russia's.

    Ukraine is a weakling country sucking on the American teat.
     
  15. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    What money?
    I make a six figure salary. I bet I contribute a heck of a lot more than you. I have as much say on what happens with the money as you do, and if it was proportional to contribution I bet my voice would have bigger weight.
     
  16. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    It’s not about the size of the economy. It’s about commitment made to a country that had more nukes than China.
     
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  17. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    By the way, this is another reason why I think you are a Russian troll - you seem to shift your argument. First you ask why Ukraine is important. And now that you don’t have anything against a solid argument you shift to claiming that just because Ukraine’s economy is small, the US doesn’t need to keep it obligations.
    You would love the US and Russia to be friends, but when Russian actions cause massive damage to the US image abroad it’s just not going to happen. Even with a president like Trump, the system does not allow such injustice to happen.
     
  18. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Unless you pay $1.5 billion in taxes, which is the amount of money that American taxpayers have sent to Ukraine's corrupt, weak government since 2016, your attempt a point fails.

    It's obvious that your loyalties are divided between America and Ukraine. It's obvious that you don't empathize with the struggles of the average American. And it's obvious that you don't share the values or the interests of the average American.

    The average American wants American tax dollars to stay in America. You want American tax dollars to go to your old country. Letting eastern Europeans like you into the country was a big mistake, a much bigger mistake than letting in people from South America.
     
  19. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    If it's not the size of the economy, then why did you bring up the size of Russia's economy? Just more hypocrisy?

    Ukraine has no nukes. Russia has tons of nukes.

    Again, your own arguments blow up in your face. Hilarious.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  20. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Pat Buchanan asked that question. I went ahead and said that Ukraine is not important. And it is not. It's a tiny, irrelevant country that is a drain on the American economy. It's also a large source of risk, since it puts Americans at odds with a nuclear power.

    Your argument was incredibly weak, actually. You didn't name one measurable, tangible benefit that the average American derives from the US relationship with Ukraine. Not a single one. You cannot point to anything solid or real that Americans gain from sending $1.5 billion to Ukraine's politicians and bureaucrats. Nor did you give a reason why sending $1.5 billion to Ukraine is better than sending 45,000 Americans to college. In fact, you dodged my entire argument and every point I made, which is what you always do when you cannot rebut the other person's position.

    The only obligation the US has is to act in the interests of Americans. Sending billions of dollars to Ukraine isn't in the interests of Americans. It's a total waste of money.

    I want the US to be friendly with as many countries as possible. It benefits America. Why do you oppose things that benefit America? Oh, right... because your loyalties are divided between America and Ukraine. You left your heart in the old world, which means you're not a real American.
     
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  21. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    So you have no good answer. Didn't think so. All you can do is attack the messenger.
     
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  22. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    That’s not the point.
    My point is that, if looking at GDP per capita, my contribution to the treasury is more than double of an average American. As a rightful US citizen I have the right for an opinion and political views.

    Wrong. I never advocate blindly sending money to Ukraine or any other country. My views of Ukraine are actually pretty bad about that country.
    My support for that country is based on Russian aggression - when I was leaving Ukraine in 2001 it was times when the word of the US government was very respected by everyone in this world. The US, UK and Russia promised Ukraine security for giving up third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. You can already see that most of the countries started to see that Russian presidents signature in a treaty is not worth the paper that it is written on. As someone who loves this country I do not want the United States to meet the same fate. I do believe that this country needs to meet its commitments. Outside of that, I really don’t give a damn about Ukraine.

    Again wrong.
    Imagine for a second that you have a nice stash of guns and ammo worth $1M. Then a rich neighbor comes around from a few blocks away who has a better collection promising you protection if you give away all your weapons and ammo to another neighbor (Russia). In 1994 Ukraine agreed and did exactly that - there were freight trains leaving Ukraine toward Russia with hundreds of nuclear warheads in them. Ukraine used to be the most powerful country in Europe that is entirely in Europe. It trusted the US with its aspirations towards west, and when the time came when Ukraine really needed help the US was sitting there with Obama in charge doing next to nothing.
    So going back to my neighbor example, let’s say that the most powerful and most armed neighbor convinced you to give away all of your guns and ammo to another neighbor (Russia). And then a few years down the road that neighbor (Russia) comes into your yard and builds a fence in the middle of it claiming half of your territory for himself. And the biggest neighbor who convinced you to have up all your weapons and ammo said that all they are going to do is not talk with another neighbor who abused you so much.
    So, as a participant of the disarming the victim, doesn’t the US owe at least a little bit to Ukraine for giving up weapons that are worth a lot of money just to get its arse handed to it by its neighbor?

    What would you prefer - a disarmed corrupt Ukraine, that is fairly harmless to the entire world, or corrupt Ukraine with larger nuclear arsenal than that of China rivaling russia? For an example of extremely corrupt nation with a whole bunch of nukes you shouldn’t go too far - look into your most favorite country - Russia!

    Only people without a brain and with complete ignorance of the most recent history would not support Ukrainian territorial integrity. This has nothing to do with the size of their economy. It’s about the principle - you stand by your word and if you don’t you become some who is not trusted by anyone.
     
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  23. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Well, Bill Clinton got the US involved in it. Go knock on his doors and tell him what you think if you don’t get shot by secret service.

    The benefit is huge - the country having the ability to disarm another country based on its word. This kind of stuff prevents major wars. If you truly served in the military you would understand the importance.

    Exactly, the US government eliminated 3rd largest nuclear power in the world for the benefit of the US citizens. And now, based on its commitments to the US citizens and Ukraine the US government must act.

    Judging from your statements about Ukraine you want the US to be friends with only one country - Russia. You want us to be friends with a neighborhood bully because of petty fear instead of being truly free with a choice of who you really want to be friends with. This just shows how sh!tty your personal character is and just shows how sh!tty of a soldier you were (if you really served!).
     
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  24. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Nobody said you don't have a right to your views. I'm saying your views are influenced by your divided loyalties.

    You still haven't pointed out one measurable or tangible benefit that Americans get from their relationship with Ukraine. Because you can't. Because there are none.

    The only people who the US owes are US citizens. The only reason for the US to do anything is for the benefit of US citizens. Sending billions of dollars to Ukraine does not benefit the country. It hurts the country. That money would be better spent on things like education or healthcare or balancing the federal budget. Only someone with divided loyalties would be against spending American money on America first.

    What would you prefer - sending 45,000 Americans to college or propping up a corrupt government in Ukraine? I prefer sending Americans to college. That strengthens our country a thousand times more than sending money to some eastern European backwater.

    The US also promised Russia it would not move NATO one inch east after the reunification of Germany. The US didn't keep that promise either. Only people without a brain and a complete ignorance of recent history thinks the US actually keeps its promises.
     
  25. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    A stupid and irrelevant comment.

    You don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. The nukes in Ukraine were put there by Russia. Russia had operational control of the nukes. And Russia kept using the nukes as an excuse to involve itself in Ukrainian politics. Ukraine had no choice but to get rid of them.

    Ukraine wasn't a nuclear power.

    Only a deranged person would describe the fear of nuclear war as petty.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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