When Did Ukraine Become a ‘Critical Ally’?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Ethereal, Nov 15, 2019.

  1. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Whatever helps you sleep at night.
    The nukes in Ukraine were in physical control of Ukraine. Everything else is just a software update. Most of those warheads were built in Ukraine, so it’s not like they couldn’t do it.
    it was the third largest nuclear power in the world. And they gave it all away for assurances of territorial integrity from the US, UK and Russia.

    Nobody is talking about a nuclear war. But as part of the US commitment it’s perfectly within its right to arm Ukraine to its teeth. After all, that sh!thole corrupt country actually kept its word and gave away all of its nukes! Even Russia doesn’t seem to be capable to keep its word. How about the United States?
     
  2. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Your comment was stupid and irrelevant. Sleep has nothing to do with it.

    But no operational control, which made them useless to Ukraine and dangerous to have on their territory.

    lol

    Using Russian science and engineering.

    They didn't do it because they couldn't do it. Getting rid of the nukes was the only rational move. They had no other choice.

    In order to be a nuclear power, you have to be capable of deploying nuclear weapons. Ukraine never had that capability because they didn't have operational control over the nuclear weapons.

    Lots of people talk about nuclear war. Specifically, avoiding one. You want to risk a nuclear war with Russia just to prop up some unimportant country you used to live in. If you love Ukraine so much, why don't you just go back to where you came from? America would be much better off without people like you.

    It didn't have any nukes because it never had control over them.

    So now that your "nuclear Ukraine" argument has fallen apart, what will you try next?
     
  3. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Not really. To me the US comes first. And I care about the commitments.

    I gave you a ton of reasons. You can lead horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

    Disarming Ukraine was the benefit. A huge one. Look at North Korea, Iran and other countries. And all those weapons it gave away cost billions.

    That corrupt government is the only party to the Budapest memorandum that kept its word on faith. Maybe the US is the one that is corrupted and can’t keep up with its obligations. Everyone already knows that the word of Russian government means nothing.

    That’s a Russian troll excuse. Because neighbor A burned down your house doesn’t give you the right to take half of the yard of the neighbor B. If you have beef with neighbor A take it up with them, not neighbor B.
    Ukraine is the true victim of this situation.
     
  4. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Here's some of the things Americans could have done with the $1.5 billion we wasted on Ukraine:
    • Bought homes for 6,500 homeless veterans
    • Sent 45,000 Americans to college for four years
    • Resurfaced about 2,000 miles of American roadways
    • Paid for a year's worth of healthcare for 150,000 Americans
    Instead, that money went into the pockets of Ukrainian politicians, bureaucrats, and contractors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  5. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    The only commitment that matters is the commitment to the American people. The only reason for the US to do something is to benefit Americans. Wasting billions of dollars on Ukraine's government in an attempt to ensure its territorial claims does not benefit the country. It hurts the country.

    You didn't give a single reason. You cannot point to even one measurable, tangible benefit that Americans derive from their relationship with Ukraine. Because there are none. It's a weak, unimportant country with no strategic value of any kind.

    Ukraine was never armed with nuclear weapons in the first place, as I've already informed you. They had no operational control over those weapons. So the only benefit you've alleged is not actually a benefit, because it's based on something that never actually happened.

    The true victim is the American people, who are being extorted by their own government in order to line the pockets of foreign politicians, bureaucrats, and contractors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  6. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    Personal insults don’t help your case.
    Ukraine has the ability to take over those nukes. Both of my parents worked at Kiev’s Radio Zavod - a unique organization making semiconductors for Soviet ICBMs and space program. Ukraine is the country that truly has the know how on space launch. Even today Russians rely on Ukrainian 1st and 2nd stage boosters to get their sh!t into orbit.

    Whatevs, kiddo.

    Again, Ukraine was the place where semiconductor for space travel engineered. Ukrainian YuzhMash was the place where most of Russian nukes were made. It’s not Russians - you need to have educated local population to build stuff like that. But what would you know about education?

    Yes they did! They literally built brains of those nukes - semiconductors were made in Kiev, Ukraine! Taking operational control of those nukes is literally just a software upgrade. I’m saying that as someone who actually creates software!

    Even to this day, Ukraine has the capability to build aircraft and missiles. And even to this day, after so many years of war, Russians rely on Ukrainian built boosters to serve ISS. So, yeah, the country has the capability to do quite a bit. Presently there is a debate now in whether Ukraine should start building its own nuclear weapons again. It’s not like it doesn’t have everything it needs, including the skills, to do that.

    If the US was afraid of Russia, then why did it help Ukraine lose all of its nukes in exchange of promises of security. This country looks like it promises everything but when sh!t hits the fan it just imposes weak sanctions. How do you expect to disarm Iran and North Korea with such record?

    you are wrong. It did control them. Otherwise there would be no Budapest Memorandum.

    My argument didn’t fall apart. You are grasping for straws.
     
  7. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Then why do you engage in them so often?

    Ukraine never had operational control of the nukes. They were never a nuclear power. They got rid of the nukes because they had no other choice. Your point fails. Repeating it won't change that.

    All rational people are afraid of a nuclear war. All rational people want to avoid a nuclear war. All rational people want to see normalized relations between the USA and Russia.

    It had administrative control over the nuclear weapons, but no operational control, something which you clearly do not understand. That's okay. Smart people will know what I'm talking about.

    Your argument is based on a fantasy, so, yeah, it definitely fell apart. Your hand seems to be full of straws at the moment.
     
  8. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    The US never guaranteed Ukraine's territorial claims.

    Ukraine never had operational control over the nukes.

    Ukraine wanted money in exchange for the nukes, which they got from both the US and Russia.

    Americans owe Ukraine nothing.

    Ukraine needs to put on its big-boy pants and take care of itself.
     
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  9. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and we've wasted a helluva lot more than $1.5 billion in Ukraine....that's just the last couple of years. We've given them $500 million for infrastructure projects in Donbass the last few years.....and Ukraine not only doesn't control Donbass, they cut off the electricity.....the same infrastructure U.S. taxpayers paid $500 million to replace! It's ****in nuts! Just flushing cash down the toilet.
     
  10. Thedimon

    Thedimon Well-Known Member

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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances
     
  11. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

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    When the Dems could use it as a talking point to use against Trump. They didn't seem to care much about them when Russia invaded and took Crimea. They didn't seem to care when Ukraine was begging for weapons and Obama gave them blankets. They didn't seem to care when Dems were making a killing from the corruption there. They didn't seem too concerned about all the missing money there. But God forbid Trump try to get assurances that aid would not be wasted in a corrupt way.
     
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  12. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Donor

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    Look at a map. It may come as a surprise to some that the world doesn't work on a transactional bases like some NY real estate deal. It's strategy driven, not next weeks payback.
     
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  13. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    In terms of continuing parts of our space program after the demise of our Shuttle, that would be an accurate statement.
     
  14. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Give me a measurable, tangible benefit that the country derives from this expenditure or simply admit that you have nothing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  15. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    None of those "assurances" entail fighting Russia on Ukraine's behalf or helping Ukraine's corrupt government oppress its own citizens. The diplomats who crafted the agreement were careful not to include any language that would require US defense of Ukraine's borders or territory.
     
  16. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Donor

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    "Measurable, tangible benefit." What do you think this is, sort of some tit for tat real estate deal? This is global strategy measured in lives, security, and projection of United States power. This is how the United States remains a superpower. Ukraine provides a bulwark dividing Russia from Europe. Ukraine is a strategic asset. This is global politics and power.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  17. Hoosier8

    Hoosier8 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good thing Trump sent lethal aid then, right?
     
  18. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    So you don't think US foreign policy should be done to provide our country with benefits that are measurable and tangible? Because that would be too similar to a real estate deal? Do you even realize what you're saying right now?

    Yeah, you already referenced "strategy". What you haven't done is explain how this "strategy" benefits the average American in a way that is both measurable and tangible. Instead, you scoff at the very idea of viewing foreign policy in that way, as if the very concept of benefiting measurably and tangibly is somehow offensive or stupid.

    What does that even mean? Because it just sounds like another overly vague talking point meant to cover up the fact that US foreign policy doesn't actually serve the interests of the country.

    So what? What does that have to do with the immediate concerns of the average American?

    Why?

    You just keep tossing around these vague platitudes that mean nothing and acting like they're profound arguments.

    What "strategy" is the US relationship with Ukraine furthering? And how does this strategy benefit Americans in a way that can be measured or demonstrated? Can you answer these basic questions or not?
     
  19. Texas Republican

    Texas Republican Well-Known Member

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    Ukraine is simply a buffer between Western Europe and Russia.

    The Russians are paranoid of the West, resulting in them doing crazy things. Germany invading the Soviet Union and the talk of Ukraine joining NATO feed the paranoia.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  20. opion8d

    opion8d Well-Known Member Donor

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    If you're seeking some monetary return for America's strategic global imperatives, you'll be waiting a long time. Measured and ands demonstrated? America is the only superpower, has the largest economy by far. Our allies multiply our power and amplify American hegemony. That's a pretty good return.
     
  21. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    Russia is our enemy, Ukraine is against Russia. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
     
  22. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    I think it's more that Europe is paranoid about Russia, seeing as they did forcefully anex dozens of European countries and murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

    I mean, their leader was one one of the top guys at the KGP. Russia didn't invade Ukraine because theywere "paranoid". Theyinvaded because Putin wants to reform the USSR with himself as a dictator.
     
  23. Kranes56

    Kranes56 Well-Known Member

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    Kinda simple really.

    Russia needs a defense in depth strategy. Hence why they needed the Warsaw Pact. By aligning Ukraine with U.S. via stronger ties to western Europe, the U.S. can force Russia to be peaceful, without ever having to fire a bullet. Same reason as why the Baltic countries receive U.S. aid too.
     

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