When does a ZEF (zygote/embryo/fetus) become a person? WHY?

I just now strolled through several pages of conversations about abortion.It seems to me that many are putting the cart before the horse, intellectually. They are discussing solutions without having clarified the problem.

If a ZEF is not a person, then there is no problem: the woman can do as she pleases, without interference from anyone. On the other hand, if the ZEF is a person, then there must be arbitration between its rights and the rights of the woman.

So... before all else, we must know when a ZEF becomes a person. This is not a legal question. We all know Roe, and that it is an arbitrary compromise. Roe may be overturned; either to extend or diminish it, depending on the more fundamental question of "When does a ZEF become a person?"

Oh, wait...

What is a "person"?

Before we can answer the question, "When does a ZEF become a person?"... we must decide what defines a "person".

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There may be as many ideas out there as there are people. So... PLEASE... do not simply make affirmations. Do not simply quote the law.

Propose your ideas, and explain them.

Thank you.

 

How about when it begins sucking its thumb, or when it begins bouncing around in there?

Click here at 32:00 into the video:


"At this age, there's so much space in the uterus the fetus bounces and leaps around using the walls of the womb like a trampoline"

(11 weeks)

 

Why that moment, rather than any other?

 

When they get a job and move out. Before that, they might possibly be human, but nobody
is really sure.

 

ESPECIALLY applies to teens who should be collectively nailed into barrels and fed through the bung hole until able to exist without technology

 

When does a ZEF (zygote/embryo/fetus) become a person? WHY?

It doesn't....A fetus does eventually leave the womb and become a baby just as a cat fetus eventually becomes a Kitten.

 

Why bother discussing when a person becomes a person if it's NOT a legal matter...legal is all that counts .


... there are some people who actually think that from conception the ZEF looks exactly like the Gerber baby and who wants to wrangle with those people.


There are even people who think Panda bears have some kind of BEARing on abortion...




IF a fetus is considered a person from conception with all it's rights comes restrictions and ,( YES, the law enters here,) and one of those restrictions is that no one can use another's body to sustain their life...so women can kill the fetus even if it's a person.

Every person has a right to self defense so women may kill the fetus even if it's a person ......

It has to be a legal decision or women's rights would be trashed under the boots of Anti-Choice misogynists...

 

The very simple answer to your question, in the thread title, is: when it is viable outside the womb.

Generally, legal abortions occur at 12 weeks or less. According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive. It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500 g (17.6 ounces) to survive.

 

True... but the law should be based on something.

There have been societies who did not consider the new-born to be a person, even after birth. Not until some later evidence of continued development, such as walking or talking.

I've tried to discuss abortion many times, but very rarely have I met anyone who has actually thought through their own ideas. Most people have only a very superficial explanation of why they "think" as they do. I am conscious of the fact that my own ideas on the subject are not set in stone... have evolved considerably over the years... so I'm always hoping to find new insights.

 

Dogs aren't persons.
People go to jail for killing them

 

So... that would be something like five or six years old?

A new-born is clearly not viable: it will die within a few hours if it is not cared for.

 

Many argue that full grown adults aren't viable, and need to be taken care of by the taxpayers.

 

That isn't what viable means ...in relation to the fetus it is viable(able to survive on it's own separate from the woman) outside of the woman at 23-24 weeks...whether others care for it or not is not relevant...

 

It's based on women having the right to their own bodies just like everyone else.

Do they still exist?

My own ideas are that pregnant women do not lose the right to their own bodies because they're pregnant.

Pregnancy does not make a woman anyone's property....so women are free to abort.

 

It's at birth, when the foetus becomes a child and functions at the same basic level as all people, even if they need to be attached to machines to help them do this.

 

No neonates can survive on its own outside the mother

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
That isn't what viable means ...in relation to the fetus it is viable(able to survive on it's own separate from the woman) outside of the woman at 23-24 weeks...whether others care for it or not is not relevant...

No baby can survive on it's own with aid from someone...that isn't the point.

That isn't what viable means ...in relation to the fetus it is viable(able to survive on it's own separate from the woman) outside of the woman at 23-24 weeks...whether others care for it or not is not relevant...

That means it breathes on it's own / it's circulatory system functions without being attached to the woman.

 

Viable means it can survive outside the womb, with help. So that means at least 20 weeks of gestation. Legal abortions are usually 12 weeks, long before the fetus is viable.

According to studies between 2003 and 2005, 20 to 35 percent of babies born at 23 weeks of gestation survive, while 50 to 70 percent of babies born at 24 to 25 weeks, and more than 90 percent born at 26 to 27 weeks, survive. It is rare for a baby weighing less than 500 g (17.6 ounces) to survive.

 

Why is your "viable" significant, on the road to personhood? I would understand "able to find food and water, and to feed itself" as a criterion... but I don't see anything significant in "viable" as you define it. Could you explain why this moment is significant, please?

 

Because that is the point when the fetus can leave the woman and survive on it's own, separate from the woman. Until then it is part of the woman and totally dependent on her.
Becoming viable however, does NOT make the fetus a person, only birth, complete separation from the woman, makes the fetus a person.

 

Legally yes. But scientically the fetus is a developing human being separate from the mother except for the sustenance and incubation she provides.

 

How can it be separate if it's attached to her? It isn't , it's part of her body. Even if it's called ""a developing human being separate from the" woman it's in , it is still part of HER body.

BTW, to me "legally" is all that matters....especially since women and their rights are constantly attacked..

 

But... it cannot survive on its own. Without care, it dies in only a few hours.

"Birth" is obviously a hugely important step on the path to personhood. First breath! Separated from Momma! ... and then back to sleep... and hopefully someone will supply food... and clean up messes...

And birth can come at any moment over a several-month period. The medical staff can provoke an early birth or push a birth back.

IMNAAHO, "birth" is far more significant for the adults who welcome the newcomer than for the newcomer itself. We humans have a brain-melting "Awwww" reflex at the sight of a newborn... even from a different species. Our genes require us to care for newborns. So when a child is born, OUR world changes more than the baby's.

 

I think you are confused by what a viable fetus is. See, a fetus grows and develops inside a woman. It isn't the Gerber baby at conception.

It develops over 9 months....at about 6 months it is viable meaning if it is born it can still live and grow OUTSIDE of the woman...of course it needs help but not from the woman it was in....anyone may help it but NO one is physically attached to it.

Uh, it isn't quite that simple....the fetus undergoes quite a bit at birth as it breathes on it's own (and has other physical changes as it is detached from it's life source).....


It doesn't just slide out....there's more to it....maybe read up on it , that would be an eye opener for you in your quest for knowledge.

While that's lovely it is irrelevant to the abortion issue...or whether a fetus is a person...

 

You are confusing viable with independent