Where is the answer to this mess?

You make this "too hard" claim with ZERO evidence in order to justify spreading hate on those working full time jobs at near cost of living levels.

That is just plain disgusting.

 

You claim this, but you have ZERO evidence of ANY of it.

I've pointed out several of the issues involved in people choosing to rent.

You can not answer ONE THING I've said.

 

So you claim to know all sorts of stuff about Crank, but that I don't know anything about you? Of course I know something about you. I know the thoughts and ideas that you post here.

Crank speaks of delayed gratification and sacrificing for the future. You speak of everything being so hard that there is no point in even trying. If I was to consider who hates the poor, it appears that Crank is giving them really good advice that could make a difference, whereas you are telling them to just give up. Convincing people that they are powerless is not compassion.

 

1) If someone can't afford the 'cost of living' in the life they have, why in hell are they persisting with that life? Why have they allowed that life to evolve in the first place? Why didn't they see (well ahead of time) that the path they were on wasn't going to end well, and do something to mitigate that outcome? If penniless refugees can land in the West with no education, no language, no nothing .. and work their way out of poverty in a single generation via nothing more than determination and self-discipline, then the people you refer to should not only be 'blamed' for their circumstances, but should be shamed for their audacity in crying poor. They knew full well that the path they were on was going to end badly, but they didn't care. And they certainly didn't care enough about you and I to avoid becoming a burden on the public purse. They wanted to live the way they live and to hell with everyone else. These are your 'noble peasants'.

2) "Hate" is a bit strong - it's more like dismissal.

 

It doesn't surprise me that a person would feel disgusted when that someone's world view that the poor are helpless and have no way to escape poverty is trashed.

And I tell you this... if I was in charge of hiring someone to give motivational speeches to young adults and the poor, i would most definitely choose Crank over you! Enough naysayers giving advice already, and it really does harm the following generations and society.

 

I know two people who did exactly that. So it isn't idiotic at all. Now, in your limited existence, perhaps it is impossible, and seemingly idiotic to suggest such a thing, but in my world, it absolutely IS doable.

 

What our pal is really saying, is that things should not be 'too hard' for certain people (in this case, those who doesn't like to put themselves out, and don't give a damn what that costs others). It's almost like being a medievalist, who regards these things as birthrights. If you're an X type of person, you get to be feted by society. Everyone else has to get stuff the hard way (PLUS pay for the feted person).

It's also HORRIFICALLY in contradiction of egalitarianism and the empowerment of the working classes. Teaching poor folk that they shouldn't have to sacrifice - by convincing them that they're the special feted people - is a road straight to disempowerment. I can't claim to know this about our friend, but that's usually a deliberate action. After all, no sane adult can claim that disempowering people is good for them.

 

I used to live in a village in Sth East Asia where everyone built their own homes and grew their own food/chickens/fish etc. Much of the time the villagers had very little or no money. Because of that lack of funds, they made sure they developed survival skills and owned land. The end result was self-sufficiency, and no real sense of poverty at all. They planned ahead, and did what they needed to do to remain independent and secure. They did NOT simply decide it was too much work, and go spend what little they had on Taco Bell and a big TV.

It's all choices.

 

Yes. Many people down here still build their own homes. There is a neighborhood a few miles from me that is made up of Cambodian immigrants and their children. Many built their own homes, they have built big greenhouses out of PVC pipe and visqueen, and they grow celtuse and other vegetables, they eat what they can and sell the rest. There is also a Hispanic tradition of home building - instead of paying a builder to build a home with the associated mark-ups and profit, the family gathers up the uncles and cousins and brothers and neighbors and they "get'er done."

I realize the above is anathema to those who have never experienced such a thing, and they find it hard to believe, but it is absolutely possible. Building a house isn't rocket science. But it is hard work... and therein lies the rub. "You mean I have to work a full time job and then when I get home, I have to put in another 6 hours working on the house and also spend my entire weekends too? AHHHH, that's toooo hard." Funny thing is, when a person actually does something like this, it isn't even work... it is exciting, and fun, and rewarding because one sees that they are accomplishing their goals and working toward a financially independent future.

Still, it does not surprise me one bit that there are "city folk" who are so far removed from reality that they think the above is utterly impossible.

Oh... Crank, the above comes full circle back to your thoughts on tribes and support groups.

P.S. Apologies to Spiritgide for derailing the thread.

 

Don't for a moment think that they don't know this stuff happens all the time, though. They know only too well - which is why the say it's impossible. What they're really saying is 'it's impossible for ME'. Or IOW 'I don't care for that life - I'd rather pay (rent) through the nose to avoid the icky work'.

Meantime, your Cambodian neighbours are a good example of the determination we see in a lot of migrants/refugees. They see the immense opportunities in Capitalist Democracies, and immediately make the most of them. They regard the work and sacifice involved as a gift, because for many it's the first time they've been able to determine their future via their own behaviour. Each time they deny themselves something in pursuit of their goals, it feels like a win - not a loss. And since most have never indulged bad habits (knowing full well what bad habits do to a person's chances of financial security), they aren't battling the demons of self-indulgence that the Welfare State has enabled in Westerners.

 

Those aren't moochers, either.

 

They are if they're relying on hard working tax payers to fund them while they make no effort.

 

Except for the fact that they do make an effort.

 

Sure they do. Never spending a cent on fast food, or beer, or cigs, or recreation of any kind. No new clothes or shoes, no hair/nail salons, no eating meat, cheese, or processed convenience foods, no leaving power on 24/7, or running climate control 24/7, etc etc. They're all doing extreme frugality to avoid burdening the tax payer.

And pigs fly backwards at sunset.

 

Their not doing that, just making an effort.

 

So you're saying that they're doing LESS than that required of someone on a low income?

Because all those things I mentioned are necessary. Anything less means you're not serious. If you're not serious, you have no business leaning on others.

 

Wrong.

 

So you think that when someone does less than is necessary to achieve a particular thing, they're actually serious about achieving that thing? So I could say .. tell myself I can become a doctor by not doing enough study in high school to get the marks needed?

On which planet is this marvellous construct?

 

Their doing what THEY think is needed not YOU.

 

Right. So my personal feeling is that I should not need to do all the work necessary to become a doctor. Can I still become a doctor?

Where do you place reality in all this? Because reality dictates that certain things must be done to achieve certain things. How we FEEL about those things has nothing to do with reality. It doesn't make us exempt from the work, just because we can't be assed doing the work.

 

Good thing we aren't talking about being a doctor.

 

I'll ask you again: Where do you place reality in all this? Because reality dictates that certain things must be done to achieve certain things. How we FEEL about those things has nothing to do with reality. It doesn't make us exempt from the work, just because we can't be assed doing the work.

 

Your way is not the only way.

 

Sure. You'll have noticed in this thread that I've discussed multiple 'ways', and more importantly have stressed that it's up to each individual how they'll approach such things. There's no one method.

However, they ALL require action. Doing less than required means the thing you're wanting to achieve won't happen. If I use half the ingredients necessary for a cake, and can't be bothered baking the mixture, will I have a cake at the end of it? No. I'll have a bowl of gloop.

Why does this even need explaining? Are you so detached from reality that you think things can be achieved by magic?

 

You think they either do it your way or their doing nothing.