"White Privilege" doesn't exist

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by Ronstar, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. ThelmaMay

    ThelmaMay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    4,102
    Likes Received:
    5,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Most men will turn themselves inside out saying there is no such thing as male privilege.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  2. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    It may shock you, but America is not the world.
     
  3. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    If there is, tell me how it manifests itself in reality. Are newborn baby boys handed money, diplomas, jobs, status and life on a silver plate the moment they are born?
     
  4. ThelmaMay

    ThelmaMay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    4,102
    Likes Received:
    5,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    It may shock you, but I was an international teacher for 14 years and taught in 4 different countries in different parts of the world. I also taught in the States. I am an American and know the difference between how teachers are seen and valued in other parts of the world and in the States.
     
  5. ThelmaMay

    ThelmaMay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    4,102
    Likes Received:
    5,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    This is really silly. I am quite sure any man knows how he gets male privilege as well as white privilege. It's so obvious. To me not 'seeing' it has to be intentional. This is the type of conversation I’ve engaged in too many times in past decades with male chauvinists and have no more patience for it.

    One type of example is what Matt Lauer got away with for decades. Any woman, not matter what her position in an organization, would never have gotten away with something like that for very long. That's off the top of my head. I'm not going to continue with such a ridiculous discussion. Intentional ignorance is extremely annoying.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  6. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I take you cannot even give one example and from that I can conclude it only exists in your head.
     
  7. ThelmaMay

    ThelmaMay Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    4,102
    Likes Received:
    5,750
    Trophy Points:
    113
    .
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  8. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    The burden of proof is on you. "White Privilege" is an extrordinary claim that requires extrordinary proof. All I am asking for is one example of "White (Male) Privilege".
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  9. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Are you white? Are you male?
    I wonder how you would feel if employers said no one with a health condition need apply. How would you feel if colleges rejected you because of your health condition
    I am sorry you had to undergo all that. Just curious, what discrimination do you face? I agree with you that you don’t have to play the victim card because you are not of an oppressed group. People with disabilities have had their movement ,,ergo, “handicapped parking”, bathrooms etc.
     
  10. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female

    Getting paid more for comparable work.
    Not being viewed with suspicion wherever you go
    Being able to hail a cab and know you’ll be picked up
    Walking in the street and not expect to be hooted at like a dog
     
  11. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am part Middle Eastern.

    I believe in freedom of association and therefore believe both employers and schools can discriminate whomever they want on whatever grounds they wish. Do I think it is morally right? No, but I still support their right to do so because I myself, and everyone else, discriminate everyday; making a choice means to discriminate x in favour of y.

    I do not face any sort of discrimination despite belonging to several "oppressed groups" at once (second generantion immigrant, working class family, disability etc etc) and exactly that is my point - Any oppression that may exist is on the individual level because in the West, there is no such thing as "structural oppression" of any group.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  12. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I see this is the second time you use the term "comparable work" instead of "same job", which used to be the way this argument was presented. What exactly is "comparable work"? If it was more expensive to hire White Men, employers would do nothing else but to hire anyone who is not White and male.

    You view all White men as privileged racists and there are plenty of people like you out there. Isn't that to view someone with suspicion?

    Really, now? We are still doing this? I say; screw the cab, call an Uber. :D #wondersoffreemarketdoesitagain

    That kind of thing only happens in Tom n Jerry and you know it. One could argue it is an evil stereotype that depicts men as horny animals that cannot control their urges around women and just have to whistle everytime one passes by. :p
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
    Lil Mike likes this.
  13. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    There you go with the rhetoric....Oppressed individuals have no,power. Millions have a voice.. you seem to live in a vacuum and have no sense of reality
     
  14. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Second generation are not an oppressed group
    Working class white people are not an oppressed group
    Disabled are not an oppressed group
    Obviously you support institutionalized discrimination. I do not. You support the right for people not to serve black people. I do not. Saying it isn’t right but supporting the right to do it, makes us quite different people.
    I am not surprised that you would easily allow yourself to be discriminated against because from everything you say you tend to walk away from difficult decisions.
     
  15. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Oh please stop with your extemism. I don’t see all white Men as privileged racists...actually I don’t know many men who think like you, because I work mostly with educated teachers .
    And again your accepting discrimination....”just get an Uber” absolutely no empathy for the pain it hurts others
    And of course you’ve never been hassled on the street...so just dismiss it as “Tom and jerry “ are you always that passive? Men think it is a way of flattering women and don’t tell me it is a thing of the past. But obviously you have a need to trivialize women’s reactions to being called like a dog

    Here is an example of comparable work
    Example
    Traditionally, the job of a licensed practical nurse has been held mostly by women, and the job of a licensed electrician mostly by men. If the skills and responsibilities and required training levels are found to be relatively equal, then a compensation system involving both jobs would adjust compensation to bring the LPN's pay into line with the electrician's pay.

    A common example in a large organization, like state employees, might be outdoor lawn maintenance compared to nursery school aides. The former has traditionally been done more by men and the latter by women. The level of responsibility and education required is higher for the nursery school aides, and lifting small children may be similar to lifting requirements for those maintaining the lawn who lift bags of soil and other materials. Yet traditionally, the nursery school aides were paid less than the lawn maintenance crew, probably because of the historical connections of the jobs with men (once assumed to be breadwinners) and women (once assumed to be earning "pin money"). Is the responsibility for a lawn of more value than the responsibility for the education and welfare of small children?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  16. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    According to conventional Leftist rhetoric, we are. Within Socio-cultural anthropology and Sociology, the identity of second generation immigrants is a very popular research topic. Keep in mind that I do not live in America, here the demographics look different and instead of having African-Americans on the bottom of the "oppression hierarchy", we have immigrants. Same narrative, different demographics. Just as appalling.

    I see someone hasn't done her homework on Kimberle Crenshaw. :D

    Are you prepared to stand behind that notion in absurdum? Would you date anyone or do you have your preferences? Would you let anyone babysit your children, even a paedophile? Do you buy both Pepsi and Coke or do you prefer one over the other? As you see, discrimination is part of living.

    Quite the opposite actually - I have overcome many difficulities and facing them, I never blamed society for working against my group, not even once!
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  17. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    So, then you agree with me that (1 ) racism is not a structural problem, (2) that an individual does not represent an entire group and that (3) "White Privilege" does not exist?

    Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and get back in the saddle. If it happened every second of the hour, I would agree about the severity of the problem. One customer can cause a company more harm than the company can cause the customer, so just get over it.

    It does happen, I am sure. However, it is not a very widespread phenomenon and if you really bring "wolf-whistling" up as a form of "oppression", then you are the one guilty of trivialising the real oppression that women in other parts of the world have to face.

    Electrician and nurse are not even remotely "comparable work" since they are entirely different. Essentially, what dictates salary is supply and demand.

    Are you trying to say that all jobs should pay the same? Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about. I would say what you did here is the Feminist equivalence of "mansplaining"; your only schooling is in gender studies/sociology and now you are talking about economics as if you were an expert. Have you ever even read one book on economics?

    Clearly economics is not your field and it is just embarrassing to read your interpretation of how the market works.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  18. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    Alas, the points go Over your head. It’s sad because you can’t see because you’re so blinded by your extremism, .you don’t see that women’s work is less valued and justified by lower pay.
    But you are right about supply and demand and a wonderful example is nursing. Nursing was a female dominated profession so they were making less than men and work at that didn’t require any kind of credentials.....Now that women have opened the doors to medical schools, guess what? Nurses are making double what they used to, In the past it was easy to pay a woman less because she had fewer options. That sure is changing.
    Why do you say such stupid things like my schooling was in gender studies/sociology? You make statements that just aren’t true because you want to believe them. No I am not an economist, but I am married to one. I am sure he would ask you the same question you’re asking me
    I wonder how you would feel if men hassled you on the street all the time. ...you don’t realize it’s just a part of harassment that women have endured for years,
     
  19. Renee

    Renee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2017
    Messages:
    14,640
    Likes Received:
    7,802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    You win again...being discriminated because of your race or gender is the same as coke and Pepsi. Lol. I think your issue is that you are hung up with childish semantics so you can ignore the real issues. You know what we are talking about but you just go to the extreme because you are an extremist
    Why would you blame society for working against your group? What schools were you banned from? Where was this institutionalized prejudice ? Sounds like you have a little victim envy in you
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  20. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    That is factually incorrect. Beyonce earns more than "Builder Bob", does this mean Black women are paid more than White men? Does this mean Black women's work is valued higher than that of White men?

    I am only talking about the present because the present is all that matters for the topic in question. No one is denying that there was discrimination in the past. The disagreement is on whether there is still legal discrimination today and my argument is that there is none and where you stand on the issue becomes more unclear for each post that you publish because in one post you talk about the present and in the second, you talk about the past.

    You did not even have to tell me that because it was already obvious from what you wrote.

    "All the time", my arse. In Egypt and Afghanistan maybe, but not in the West.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  21. Ritter

    Ritter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    8,944
    Likes Received:
    3,018
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I am "banned" from becoming a citizen in both my mother's country and my father's country alike. Why? Because I am male and have the privilege of being forced to do military service, something I would not have to do had I been female.

    "OMG, I am oppressed! Boo hoooooo!"
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
    crank likes this.
  22. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    So? My only experience was the western model, also. But it didn't stop me from recognising that the west has a problem with teens and young adults, and wondering if there wasn't something better in terms of parenting. IMO, this should really be the very first thing you do when considering parenting, even before conceiving your first child.

    I genuinely don't understand why, given your deep interest in the subject, you've relied solely on the one model you happen to have been raised in. Did it really never occur to you to research parenting models around the world, to find the best examples? Seriously? To me, that seems as absurd as writing a book about Italian food, and filling it with your mother's Spaghetti Bolognese recipe.
     
    Ritter likes this.
  23. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Being followed around stores isn't scary. It's more funny. Especially when the person is right on your tail and you stop or turn suddenly :twisted:
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
    Ritter likes this.
  24. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Seriously? You guys are hilarious.

    Try travelling, and see how far your White Privilege extends when you're the only white person for miles around, and no one likes white people.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  25. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    54,812
    Likes Received:
    18,482
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You're talking about two entirely different things. One is a 'privilege' which doesn't exist (see 'travel'). The other is the entirely mammalian dependence upon quick appraisals of appearance. The mammal must decide (at a glance) if that buck from the herd in the next valley is a threat, or a potential 'strong' mate. Or if that new doe is actually healthy and genetically sound enough to breed.

    If you're planning to rewire millions of years of dependence upon 'appearances', throughout the animal kingdom, I wish you well.
     
    Ritter likes this.

Share This Page