Who is more powerful in this nation? Government or Corporations?

This is easy, the government controls the people, and the corporations purchase the government.

 

Reid has a bill in the Senate now. It's not going to pass because not everyone is as stupid as Reid but he's trying.

 

Great talking point but nonsense.

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Another great talking point but nonsense.

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I suppose the "they" you are referring to are the evil corporations? Still, an amusing talking point but nonsense.

 

Do you actually have something to say or are you just gonna denigrate everone elses opinions?

 

Thanks, I didn't know anyone was even trying. It would be interesting to see what would happen if a bill passed that prevented US companies from becoming entities under other nations, both politically and economically. It may be nothing but these actions often have unintended consequence. It may be that things such as the BK merger would not be allowed to happen because the company would be required to stay American, so Canada may nix the deal. Also what happens if something like the Budweiser buyout happens again where a large foreign company buys an American company? Anyway just thinking.

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So do you have a counter point? Can you show me that corporations do not influence our government? Can you prove the Forbes article wrong, show that the health care industry did not have a large part in writing the ACA and will, amazingly, profit from the use of government force to make us buy their product?

 

The primary lessons to be learned from WAMU and Microsoft is that if you don't pay the government will make it damn hard for you to play. Corporations are basically paying protection money to the government. They might be able to influence government in a very limited way say like getting the government to slap (*)(*)(*)(*) out of their competition but that's about it. Claiming that corporations wn the government is a lot like saying that the corner deli that's paying protection money to the Mafia owns the mafia. Look at what's going on with the IRS scandal and tell me that the damn bureaucrats won't do everything in their power to thwart even congressional oversight.

 

WAMU was taken (many say illegally) by the government and secretly sold to Chase. I'd be very interested to know how many of the people who made that back room deal now work for Chase. The reason it was siezed was because of a run on it and the FDIC not wanting to do its job and provide the guarantee it said it would (note for the future). I wouldn't say that taking a corporation and giving it to another corporation really shows the government has the power in that situation. It was a matter of Chase no wanting to pay what WAMU was asking (they were selling before the seizure).

Microsoft has been bled for money before in lawsuits that is for certain. The reason it seems one sided is because Microsoft doesn't really try to hold government power because, well they don't have to. They are already the number one provider in many software markets including operating systems and office software. They don't have to worry about the small guy coming up and taking a part of their business because they simply can't. If they were threatened I guarantee you'd see them pushing for regulations and pulling out patents like everyone else.

Now lets look at the other end. We have the ACA, written by big insurance companies which is projected to increase their profits 10% over the next decade if I recall correctly, shut down smaller markets, and we are all required to pay for their product simply because we breath. It's absolutely the best thing that ever could have happened to big insurance companies. The FCC is practically owned by a few giant media providers. It takes a tit on TV before they do something against the big corporations. Instead they sit there and do things like ban free nation wide internet (while keeping the wavelength open for another company to use in a future date oddly enough). They continue not to address net neutrality and are just waiting for the courts and politicians to push through more crap like the recent data ruling.

Take a look at local levels too. Most towns have one cable company, and that is likely the only high speed internet provider in town. With many webpages taking megabytes to download you need that high speed. Cabs are another great regulator commission that is somehow "for the people". The cab regulations in some states are at the point where if you have the right to drive a cab granted to you by the city you can sell that right and be able to outright purchase a house. Hell the cab board here, which amazing is run by cab drivers and cab company owners, has shut down Uber since it would "be unsafe since the drivers aren't licensed" (if you've seen Portland cab drivers you know what a joke that is) and certainly has nothing to do with intentionally keeping an uncompetitive environment for themselves. They even prevent the local light rail from running until the bars get out because it would eat into their business.

Anti-competitive regulations are out there plain as day to see. They often come about "for safety" or some BS but it's about preventing competition. Look at all those EPA regs that try to regulate emissions by new expensive means while letting currently built factories just keep on polluting. Look at the subsidies some of these companies get from local governments for the "privilege" of building a facility in their area. The second they don't get what they want they are ready to walk. Hell look at the federal subsidies given out to all sorts of crap, and the bailouts that resulted in billions being slushed around for companies. Sure the government does sometimes do something to a company, but it's almost always, like WAMU, for the benefit of another.

 

no, but they can spend sufficient resources getting politicians to their views elected. Example, state legislatures passing laws forbidding Municipalities from setting up community based internet systems for their residents and running them at half the cost of the commercial nets.

Again they have been very good at getting those consequences to be mosly slaps on the wrists.

not nearly as many as should

there are often times when your choice is use a specific company, or do without.

 

Please note the difference between Microsift before and after the anti trust lawsuit was that before it spent nothing on lobbying now it spends millions. WAMU did no lobbying hence it got no protection from the whispering campaign that provoked the run.

 

Well, let's see.

I once owed Visa a few hundred dollars which resulted in an occasional telephone call and several "past due" bills in the mail.

Another time I owed the government a few hundred dollars which resulted in sheriff's deputies coming to my home, handcuffing me and then locking me in a cage.

I'm going to have to go with "the government" on this one.

 

There is certainly truth to that, but that goes right into my point that the corporations are stronger than government. If the government were stronger the money paid would mean nothing, and decisions would not be based on who is lobbying who, but rather what is best for the country (or government). As is companies bribe the government to look the other way and to give them advantages through regulation. They are controlling government, not the other way around. There are still exceptions of course, such as Microsoft.

 

That's true. A corporation cannot compel you to do anything without the force of government, but it can still use the force of government and if the debt is great enough they will collect if you have the assets. I'm actually surprised we don't have debtors prisons, especially given the private prison system and the way police departments are funded with the War on Drugs. Then again what can you take from the poor and resell? I'd say it's only popular opinion that keeps them from existing outside of the government. Why they get the privilege of locking people in cages for not paying is beyond me since I thought we abolished debtors prisons long ago as unconstitutional, but that old piece of paper means nothing anymore. Never really did I guess.

 

It means almost nothing. I merely keeps them from being screwed even when they do nothing wrong. Again, is the corner grocery story paying protection money to the Mafia to be left alone more powerful than the Mafia? Uncle Sam runs the nastiest protection racket in the world and gets a free pass because people hate corporations for any of a variety of reason most of which are either self serving or retarded.

I had friend back in the seventies worked for a small refinery. He was an engineer. He was trying at that time to develop a machine that would detect parts per 75k. That which you cannot detect you can't control. We are now detecting parts per quadrillion that's like a molecule per 16 oz glass of water. Air water and what have you have gotten better not so much because federal rules and regulations but because the tech we've developed have made it possible to clean pollutants from them to a degree that we never could before. And its corporations that have done it. And mot out of the kindness and goodness of their hearts but because the stockholders who are the owners have drink the same damn water we do and breathe the same damn air we do.

 

Really? People actually think the government is weaker than corporations? The government has more inherent authority, and the government's tax revenues FAR exceed corporate revenues.

 

Yeah pretty sure if it wasn't for regulations they'd be belting out pollution and we'd have rivers still catching on fire. It's cheaper to dump that crap than it is to prevent it from happening. It's not like the corporate heads are living next to the factories. Environmental issues are a spot that is hard to address when it comes to limited government. On the one hand you don't want to put needless limits on companies and make it more expensive for them to work, on the other hand you can't allow them to pollute large areas. It would be nice if we could get a working system where you were only charged for what left your land, and that money went directly to cleanup, but unfortunately the technology isn't there. I don't have an easy solution for this.

 

Corporations got the Americans by the short hairs. It's all about money and nothing more.

 

For the most part the technology is there, in the US, however, we tend to engage in overkill. Case in point one of the largest dioxin spills in the world occurred in Northern Italy. Their solution was to dump about three feet of dirt on top of it and move on. Cancer rates there are no higher than anywhere else in Europe. At Times Beach we had a similar issue occur. Our solution was to spend a million or so dollars a day for several years burning dirt. To date there is no evidence that our solution was any better than theirs and theirs cost one whole hell of a lot less. One should also note that obtaining super fund status for a given site is now more about politics than any actual problem. Not to mention which site remediation is now a big business in and of itself. One suspects they were burning dirt at Times Beach for at least while after there was any reason to do so. Government tends to be a corrupting influence for the same reasons that power tends to be a corrupting influence.

 

What?

 

When this country has the highest corporate tax rates in the world and businesses are leaving in droves.

The ACA forces businesses to provide insurance to their employees costing many businesses millions every year, and putting many small businesses out of business.

It seems corporate influence isn't so influential.

 

I though master blaster would have cleared up any confusion.

 

Corporations and government are more like one big etherogeneous corporation, where people have different opinions but must run the state together. Without corporations there is no businness and competition, without the gov there are no rules and order. So the actual state is a mixture of corporative power and government power. I don't agree with people saying the gov is owned by corporations, but i don't agree either with those saying the gov holds down the businness ( that'd be very asinine ).