Why America Is Becoming More Divided

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Robert, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you actually think for a moment, you realize that everything you endorse is that we are obligated to fix problems that aren't ours- for people who won't fix their own. I'm talking about people learning to do for themselves- but you are talking about somebody else carrying them so they will not have to learn to do for themselves. You addict them; make them dependent- and destroy their freedom! That is help for the moment, but harm for the long term. BAD idea.
    I'm wondering how many things in your life have to be done by others because you don't want to be bothered?

    This comes back to the biblical fish thing, and teaching a man to fish so they become independent. Society provides that in a multitude of ways- and people who WANT TO LEARN have no trouble finding it. Those who want YOU to learn and do while they sit on their butts..... are not interested. They have people like you who will assume the responsibility they don't want to accept, and you are willing to be the enabler of their continued poverty by insuring they will have no need to learn or accept, and thus forever be "in need"- and raise children that will also be "in need". I consider that a harmful position- preventing people from escaping the limits of their lack of ambition and motivation. Like feeding wild animals who wind up lacking the capacity to do for themselves and will starve without the handouts. It's not kindness or caring- it's gross indifference to the damage it does to people in the long run.
     
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  2. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That's more of the same from you. You aren't proposing ANY solution. You're just hoping the problem goes away.

    Do you seriously believe the problem is just going to go away if you ignore it?
    You don't know ANYTHING about me. So, basing your ad hom garbage on your own ignorance is just a reflection on you.
    You haven't proposed teaching anyone ANYTHING.

    Until you find out how to successfully do that and make a serious proposal, please stop taking the Bible in vain.
     
  3. Lesh

    Lesh Banned

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    We're divided because Republicans LIKE it that way.

    It's all about "grievance politics"
     
  4. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wrong- and that is such a constant here. Most of the people you are referring to are capable of solving their own problems- and that is the solution. It's not that they can't; it's that they won't. The issue is that they want someone else to do it. They believe that is the answer because someone like you told them that society owe them; agrees with them and tells them the rest of society is responsible for their bad choices and failure to do for themselves.

    I don't hope the "problem" goes away, because it is their problem, and the consequences are the motivating factor that will eventually cause them solve it-
    PROVIDED SOMEONE LIKE YOU DOESN'T KEEP TELLING THEM THAT THEY AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES.
    That is the problem that needs to be solved- stop interfering with the choices of people, good or bad.
     
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  5. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    We tried the "do nothing" approach. Remember??? And, it did not work.

    And, your idea that "they want someone else to do it" is just cheap ad hom. It has NOTHING to do with the issues that actually exist.

    This is where AOC has insights and you do not.
    More garbage about what YOU think I think!!

    And, once again you prove that your idea is to ignore the problem in hopes that it goes away.

    BUT, we know that can not happen. This is the real world. There are real issues. You even quote the BIBLE without actually looking to see what it says - as if it supports anything you have said on this subject. If you want to "teach someone to fish", I might get interested - so might AOC!!


    If you want a more comprehensive version of what the Bible says on this topci, read Matthew 25:31 to the end.

    It calls for every person to seek out those who need help and to provide that help. Find those who are in jail, in hospital, in poverty, or whereever else they may be found. No excuses - find them! Then, help them.

    And, failure to do so merrits the ultimate penalty - even for those who recognize Christ as their savior.

    Do you believe the Bible is a valid map for us to follow?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  6. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well first of all- get off the religious kick. I'm not religious and have not quoted bible. NO, I do not believe the bible is a map. It's got good ideas as well as plenty of bad ones, and people pick and choose the one that validates their purpose at the time. You are doing that right now. I believe in a higher power, that actually works- but doesn't grant favors or take revenge, so I don't get righteous or take directions from quoting scripture.

    The "PROBLEM" is not the problem of society, except that those who refuse to be responsible for themselves try to make it such. That only gets accepted by people who have been buying the idea that you owe others protection from themselves.

    There is a difference between those who truly can't- which we consistently and compassionately help, and those who want to live on hand-outs. Those are what we used to call "bums". You may feel sorry for bums and see a problem for society that you want others to solve. I see a bum with their own problems, the result of their own choices- and that IS NOT my problem to solve. Showing people how to better themselves (and I have spent a lot of time doing just that) may be something I choose to do- but it is nothing I have any obligation to do, or that society has any obligation to do.

    Now if you have no ability to separate one person's problems from everybody's problems, feel free to dedicate your life to them. But you do not have the right to require me or anyone else in any way to do so.
    I suggest you quit trying and act for yourself.
     
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  7. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Yes, your "solution" is to ignore the problem.

    You've said that over and over again. And, I just point out that we tried that. Plus, how many problems can really be resolved by pretending they don't exist?


    Ask AOC - she knows about this issue.
     
  8. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    As much as I regret that Pelosi has relented (from her original instincts) and taken the impeachment path, I certainly applaud her for this response to a reporter who asked:
    "Why do you hate the president?

    to which she replied:

    "I don't hate anyone. I was brought up to love people.
    But I do call out the president's cowardice for failing to protect those young students demanding gun control. So, don't mess with me about hatred".
     
  9. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are simply not cognizant of the facts that have been clearly stated- and there is nothing I can do to change that, any more than you or I can change the mindset of a person who simply lacks the motivation to do for themselves and sees people like you at the source of welfare so they won't have to. So- YOU are stuck with that.

    To express confidence in AOC is to show everyone the limits of your judgment. Looks like you are stuck with that too. Your decisions bring you problems- and you own them.

    I'm not here to waste time like this. If you can't grasp any view but your own, I have no time for you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  10. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    In other cases, prejudiced parents perpetuate divisive ideologies.

    See how you are seeing only one-side of reality, and then you trumpet the particular strengths of that one side.

    In fact, a problem with public education is its restriction to basic 'non-ideological' knowledge, at the very time private education is pushing particular ideologies. We need a public system that can compare strengths and weaknesses, and the relation to truth, of particular ideologies....as well as teaching the basics.

    [Watch the Right howl if it is suggested comparative religion is taught in public schools, or to see the perils of junk consumption, and how to see through the advertising lies and nonsense promoting consumption of same].

    I have outlined all the flaws in that paragraph, in my opening remarks above.

    You see half of reality, and then draw inadequate conclusions. I notice Willreadmore is currently dealing with this tendency of yours.

    Talking at cross purposes is another problem in these conversations.

    Nobody said anything about lowering the bar; again this is a wrong conclusion of yours, since you see only half of reality... according to your own experience.

    You say opportunity is everywhere - which it is - and then you go on about how everyone can succeed or fail, merely on the basis of that concept. So in effect you accept the reality of Trump's "neighbourhoods like war zones" as an unfortunate reality.

    Today's world is complex to negotiate; a young lad can't simply go out and shoot a rabbit or catch a fish; and not everyone can be computer programmers. The disconnect between education and ability to participate in the economy in this post industrial age is, I think, a factor in falling student scores.

    And yet conservatives fought FDR's New Deal all the way, and in the end the war intervened to put an end to those silly political divisions based on classical liberal economic dogma from the Right. .

    Disproved eg, n the GFC, which saw (after Lehmann's collapse), socialisation of the losses and privatisation of the gains, all around the world. Democrats do want equality of opportunity, though they can't win as long as they are playing by neoliberal monetarist rules - since most people don't like paying higher taxes to enable participation enhancing policies. The Right is "laughing all the way to the bank", given near universal acceptance of this neoliberal dogma.

    "Lack of moral strength".....like the German nation in 1933......as usual your formulation is simplistic. The reasons for poverty - among individuals or nations - have complex historical geographical and social causes. Building the wall is the simple solution. Strengthening the WTO and IMF to enable prosperous development in all nations, is the real solution.

    All I've seen from you re "making people genuinely strong" is to rely on parents, and then let people sink or swim. "Lowering the bar" is your nonsense formulation, that has nothing to do with public education that is genuinely morally and intellectually strengthening.

    Neoliberal monetarist nonsense, which I have refuted in my reply to your "Money is not finite, but money does has value" proposition. The federal debt is growing, yet our children will benefit from any poverty reducing social and infrastructure programs enabled by that debt, which the Fed - with its currency issuing capacity - can deal with as appropriate whatever the circumstances. That's why no-one at the Fed is giving a second thought to it, while it grows and grows and grows (now 20 trillion and beyond) - apart from letting the general public think it is an issue - to promote the neoliberal monetarist dogma that you support for your own advantage.

    Agreed, as long as you realise everybody can contribute, whether it's in a research department, or environmental or social care (ie desirable public sector activity) or in production of goods and services (unfortunately, whether such goods and services are desirable or not...) in the private sector.

    Quite obvious....but as always, you are seeing only half the picture, re "value"....

    Ie, re free enterprise, ALONE, - based on "invisible hand" competition between profit seeking individuals, without intelligent oversight re management of available resources, - what do you think the outcome of that will be...?

    More and more people are grappling with that very reality, as the limits of ecological sustainability are being tested by "free enterprise" in the global filthy fossil industry (even regardless of the CO2 issue ...…).

    All assertion without value. I judge Bill Gates on his actions, and find him lacking in knowledge of social issues...but otherwise I readily acknowledge his contribution.

    Human nature is complex, and yet slavery was abolished … eventually..
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
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  11. roorooroo

    roorooroo Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, if you didn't realize the intended sarcasm, that simply means you have not been following the argument. Even a dumbass like me saw the obvious sarcasm.
     
  12. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    It is you who is makig MASISIVE (and bogus) assumptions concerning the actual issue - for example, suggesting that those earning less than the cost of living just aren't motivated (a BLATANT insult).

    And, YOUR solution has consistently been to totally ignore the problem - suggesting it will go away if we were to simply ignore it.

    You are purposefully ignoring the facts of the issue and you are proposing a direction that is very clearly both totally wrong headed and is certain to be rejected - as it has been for many decades.
     
  13. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    You mean the Chinese proverb:

    “You give a poor man a fish and you feed him for a day. You teach him to fish and you give him an occupation that will feed him for a lifetime.”

    "Learning to do for themselves"??????

    Learning requires a teacher, does it not? ….hence the above proverb.

    You sentence: "carrying them so they will not have to learn to do for themselves" is ideological thinking par excellence, like Texas Republican's "the Right believes in equality of opportunity, the Left in equality of outcome" Total nonsense. (At least you later denied agreeing with THAT particular gem).

    You teach them so they can learn to do for themselves. Every human wants that.....

    Addressed above. The existence of entrenched (systemic) poverty itself already indicates "gross indifference to the damage it does to people in the long run", by the community in which it exists.

    MMT shows the resources exist to allow useful, productive participation BY ALL (which I covered in my post re the 'value" of money).
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  14. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    YOU are speaking from what you have accepted as news, and your own concoctions of how the world ought to be. I am speaking from personal experience in dealing with a great number of such people as well as one program in particular designed to give people in poverty nice homes- We built 100 of them, and then we watched the subsidized tenants destroy them. All over the nation, we built Low Income Housing, and rented that to poor people for a pittance- and all over the nation, watched those people turn those properties into trash. I was personally involved in such a project, I was one of the construction partners. Before the first home was 6 months old, 90% of the properties that had been vacated needed major renovation. That's how much those people appreciated the opportunity- they literally got mad and destructive because it still wasn't free. Most such projects have since been sold off as private properties or had to be demolished due to the levels of damage. You can lead a horse to water- but you cannot make them drink, and the same is true of people who have no ambition and no pride in themselves.

    This has happened coast-to-coast as we pursued the "Great Society" touted by previous democratic president Lyndon Johnson, launched in 1965. Thinking as you apparently do, that if you give a person with no pride in themselves and no will to better themselves a good home, they will become better people. While it's a noble thought- it's a totally flawed one that simply does not work. All the projects below reflect efforts to provide such housing, all of them were paid for with taxpayer dollars and all of them met with disaster at the hands of the people they were intended to help. If you looked into it you would find the majority of such projects met this same end.
    You cannot give people pride or self-esteem- They have to earn that from themselves- and you cannot help them do that. You can however, stay the hell out of the way while they are in the process.

    You obviously do not understand the psychology involved here- which means you do not have the ability to understand the problem, nor the ability to construct a solution- except waste more money and perpetuate the poverty, while people with first-hand experience already know that does not work.

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  15. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You mistake is that you think the "teaching" is a life-long tuition free attendance to a free lunch at others expense. I'm happy to show a person how to change themselves, how to find and take advantage of opportunity and gain wealth. However, I will NOT invest my time doing the trying to teach someone with the motivation of a doorknob and no intention of ever learning a damn thing. Until that person is hungry to learn and accepting the responsibility to do so- Nobody can help them. Apparently, you think that the endless subsidization of total procrastination is a worthy cause. In that case, you are free to do that all your life with my approval- but not with my money. Not with Public money.

    There is another oriental proverb that applies here-

    "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear".
    So you can understand what the means-
    The teacher is always present, and always teaching- it is the mind of the student that prevents them from seeing and learning. ONLY the student can change that. Anytime that student is willing to pull his head out of his hiney and open his mind, he would find teachers everywhere, waiting for him. They always have been.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019
  16. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    So, your project failed.

    That is NOT the issue here. The issue is how to be more successful.

    And, ignoring the problem (which is still your ONLY solution) is NOT going to be successful - as has been proven over and over again.

    You can post all the pictures of failures that you want - but not ONCE have you tried to figure out why the failure existed and then come up with ways to address the problem - necessary elements of problem solving.
     
  17. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    OK- lets look at what HAS been tried. Do some research on- Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" program, of which the project I was involved with was part of. But it wasn't just housing, it was food stamps, welfare, school social reforms and a vast array of social programs targeted to bring those in poverty or in someway disadvantaged into the mainstream of society. In other words, everything you are whining about about and a lot more. This program was bigger in scope and cost than FDR's New Deal which was used to recover from the great depression.

    Part of it was school busing- the idea that by equalizing racial mix in schools, the bad kids would become good kids and smarter kids. My third son got caught in that mess, was bused across town to a low-performing, troubled school. The government wanted to use children like mine as a sort of vaccination for the "disadvantaged". Instead, my son was beaten up, bullied, introduced to drugs, and basically acquired a substantial hate for blacks that is still part of him today. It severely damaged his life.

    This great program was, like most of these grand ideas- was very socialistic in nature. It ignored the personal reasons people are poor and placed all the blame on society. That program is now 50 years old. Poverty and welfare is still as much or more here now as it was them. Racism- at least in the public narrative, is an allegation you hear on almost every newscast, and far more so than when the "Great Society" was launched. People today are overall behaving worse as well- demanding tolerance for intolerance, blaming those who perform and pay the bills for everything that's wrong in their lives. After 50 years and hundreds of billions of dollars, and unjust impositions on all Americans- the result is that virtually nothing has been accomplished. Very much like the 50-year war on drugs- all snorting and ranting, blowing vast amounts of other people's money- and getting nowhere.

    One would think that people would learn from repeated failure, and consider a new approach. Smart people would- Politicians however are interested in the power that comes from making promises, enlarging government and expanding power- that is obvious, because those are the only tangible results of these programs. They sold the American voters snake oil, promising to make shiftless people respectable by giving them what they wouldn't work for. It didn't work. It will NEVER work. When you don't understand the problem- you aren't going to be able to solve the problem. That does not mean you can't throw billions of dollars at it, or that people will blindly buy the idea that if the idea doesn't work- we must not have thrown enough money at it. If it fails, do it again but bigger. Over and over- but the majority doesn't understand or learn, the politicians keep telling them what they want to hear-and we keeps doing the same thing expecting different results.

    It's not just my project that failed. They failed all over the nation. The conditions of things today clearly show that the "Great Society" approach was a vast waste of time and money- as well as a distraction from any solutions that might have actually helped. But- you think that doesn't matter.

    How big does a failure of such idea have to be, how many times does it have to repeat the failure before YOU can admit they failed??
    Before YOU can consider something different?
     
  18. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I don't necessarily agree with your analysis. The thing is, the comparison must be between what would have been the case had nothing been done - NOT against some extreme and arbitrary bar such as "we just solved poverty".

    And, besides that, your assessment does not mean that the "correct" answer is to ignore the problem of poverty in America. This isn't a problem that is going to go away on its own. Capitalism causes winners and losers, and it has nothing for those who lose, since there is no profit in that. Health has similar effects. The benefits of education are offered to those who can pay. Individuals can have specific issues that limit success as well as draining time and resources of family and friends. Low wages and taxation leave few choices as people live paycheck to paycheck. Etc. Etc.

    Ignoring the problems that our economy and our human condition produce is not a solution.
     
  19. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Just can't deal with it, can you? 50 years of incredibly expensive efforts fail, and you can't learn a thing from it. The solution to poverty is for the people in poverty to do something about it. No different than you getting your butt off the couch and mowing the lawn- or deciding to chill out while nature reclaims the house, and whining because your neighbors are letting your property go to hell when they could be over there doing your work for you.

    The problem is not me ignoring it- it is the person who needs the change that is ignoring it. That is the person who is could but is unwilling to apply the solution- and is also the only one who can. That's hard for you to understand, obviously.

    Capitalism does not make winners or losers. Winners and losers make capitalism, just as the players on any team or in any game make it what it is. You seem to think that people who choose to be losers should be rewarded as winners- because? Hell, who knows, because that makes no sense at all. I think you have no real answers because you can't grasp the real problem. And you can't do that, because you have so much liberal garbage in their that apparently there is no room left for logic.
     
  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Another real problem with your many paragraphs is that the fact that some program didn't work out as well as you wanted it to does NOT mean the only solution is to ignore the problem.

    What successful businessman would suggest that some attempt at manufacturing something failed, and therefore they should give up?

    There are MANY reasons various attempts don't somehow end poverty and need.
     
  21. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The business that repeatedly fails goes bankrupt- AND THEY ARE SPENDING THEIR OWN MONEY.
    50 years of failures (includes both the "Great Society and the war on drugs) should at least tell you that you need a totally different approach instead of making the same mistakes over and over.
    Our results from these things- have not only failed to be positive, they are not neutral- they are Negative.
    It's not a question of ignore- it's a question of what will actually work, and if that can be done when then object person doesn't want to change- and then- why anybody else should pay for it under those circumstances.

    Come up with a plan that actually precipitates genuine change, and we will talk about it. NOT you want society to feed all the deadbeats, we have been doing that for decades.
    Figure out how to motivate the unmotivated so they become self-sufficient, and help does not have to be an eternal drain on the rest of the nation.

    IF you do not know how to fix something- throwing money at it and hoping for a miracle is not a solution either. It's STUPIDITY.
    But you (personally) are welcome to do that with YOUR money as far as I'm concerned.
     
  22. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't going to go away. In fact, it will make things HUGELY worse.

    This is a problem with your "solution".

    But, it is also a failure of your analysis of our social safety net, progressive taxation, education system, low income housing, minimum wage, public transportation, healthcare/employment law, Medicare, and numerous other public systems that absolutely have made a significant difference in America - AND, in every other first world country.

    We know this, because for EVERY ONE of these programs we knew the situation before, and it was WORSE, not better.

    The idea that we have done enough that poverty should no longer exist is just plain ignorant - but probably no more ignorant than the idea that our homeless aren't working or are LIKING their situation (thus lacking "motivation").
     
  23. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So- you in fact have no idea what people outside the poverty category could do that would actually work, but you are willing to spend as much of other people's money as possible to be able to say "We are trying".

    I wonder if you have ever been in a position where things were hard, and you had to dig down and come up with the right stuff. I doubt it.

    Their will always be people in poverty, because there will always be people who don't care about anything but the moment- and aren't too particular about that. The examples I've shown, the experience I've shared proves that is true. There are all kinds of fit people, many with good skills or college degrees- sleeping in tents and boxes. Capable people, who just don't give a damn and aren't willing to put our any more effort than they are. Much as we don't like this, they do have the right to make that choice. So you have to decide how we will help those who have no intention of helping themselves to anything but free money and benefits, and not even that if it takes too much effort to get. That IS what a good part of the poverty level consists of. As for me- I'm not going to force them to be different so you will feel better. I'm not going to try and help people who refuse to try and help themselves- because I know it does not work. Ever. Your inability to understand that tells me you have no real experience trying on the personal level.

    I suggest you go to the nearest skid row and give away money- or advice- or whatever you think should work, then step back and see how much good it's done a week or two later.
     
  24. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    OK. Let's agree to not say stuff like that.
     
  25. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly, that is what Jesus directs in Matthew 25:31 to end.

    Direction there is that every individual is responsible for searching out those are in need. We are to search out those in hospital, in prison, or whever else they may be, and give them the help that they need.

    In fact, it states that NOT doing that is judged by God as an offense that will be punished by everlasting hell.

    Now, the catch is that it is really hard to do that today. How often have YOU gone to a prision to find someone who needs your help?

    But, we CAN take action as a group, working together to supply the help that god orders.

    As I have remembered you have said you aren't a Christian, and I'm not, either. However, we ARE a Christian majority nation.

    Attempting to demand a solution that is NOT consistent with Christianity is absolutely going to fail - just for that reason, let alone any other. It will fail, because you just won't get broad by-in on your anti-Christian plans.
     
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