Why can't the market deliver healthcare at a low cost?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by ProgressivePower, Jun 10, 2019.

  1. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    c
    A myth.

    Yes some Canadians "jump the line" for diagnostic tests, but its a miniscule %. If its a medical emergency like a heart attack or stroke or some such, there ain't no wait times at all. Come to emerg with a cut finger that needs a few stitches and expect to wait a few hours. In Canada, the number of Canadians who would prefer the American healthcare system is about equivalent to our "albino" demographic.
     
  2. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Fact not myth.

    "Canada's single-payer healthcare system forced over 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments last year. That's an all-time record.

    Those long wait times were more than just a nuisance; they cost patients $1.9 billion in lost wages, according to a new report by the Fraser Institute, a Vancouver-based think-tank."



    "Lengthy treatment delays are the norm in Canada and other single-payer nations, which ration care to keep costs down."

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallyp...e-waiting-for-medical-treatment/#38b038363e7d
     
  3. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    According to the Fraser Institute, about 0.17% of Canadians seek medical treatment outside of Canada. The other 99.83% of Canadians receive medical treatment in Canada. Of the 0.17% of Canadians who travel abroad for care, some go to Europe, some come to the US.

    Some Canadians come to the US for medical care for the same reason that many rural Americans travel to cities. Large population centers have more major facilities, and they are sometimes more easily accessible from Canada than they are for many rural Americans.

    Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 5.04.08 PM.png
    Increasingly, the astronomical cost of US inefficiency is causing Americans to seek medical care elsewhere.

    This was two year ago, and it has gotten worse:
    Why does your ideological dogma make you want to pay twice as much for what is often inferior care and, as a taxpayer, also foot the bill for the bloated medical costs of the estimated 44 million Americans uninsured and another 38 million who have inadequate health insurance?

    Why have so many advanced nations pragmatically arrived at essentially the same superior approach?
     
  4. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about others, but it sure sounds like you're trying to sell a pig in a poke. I've asked countless socialists why they don't do it at the state level, and to a comrade, they swear up and down that the only way it will work is if everybody in the country is forced to go along with their wonderful idea that works so well everywhere else.

    Maybe once you guys get something like this going, then you can sell the brilliance of socialist healthcare to the rest of the country based entirely on low cost and high quality.
     
    557 likes this.
  5. Dispondent

    Dispondent Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's simply not true. Healthcare is commodity, based on the number of providers. Some folks think it is something else, its not. Only so much healthcare can be done, it simply is not possible for everything to be done for everyone. Couple this with the costs of entering the medical professions and that commodity sets its own price. The real problem is government interference in the medical commodity market...
     
  6. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea who your "socialists" are. As a capitalist that that has run his own for-profit enterprise for years, I am not a slave to ideology, but a practical, pragmatist who embraces what demonstrably works best as confirmed by the unambiguous empirical data.

    Do you screech "Socialist!" whenever Medicare or Social Security are mentioned? You must feel very alienated from America and Americans.

    Do you cling to the failed system that cost twice as much as advanced nations (with that cost continuing to rise) because you are subsidized by an employer and the taxpayer?

    Would you have the luxury of your ideological dogma and be impervious to the reality if you contracted directly with an insurer and paid the full premium yourself?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  7. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Whatever you claim to be, it still sounds like a pig in a poke.
     
  8. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    It's not the governments place to create efficiency for you.
     
  9. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Theoretically sometimes it is, but I don't trust their ideas, or their capability to implement those ideas.

    If the progressive supporters on this forum are any indication, they're lacking common sense and will aim for some pie-in-the-sky ideal that will not work very well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  10. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    You are ideologically hidebound, but your subsidized health coverage will eventually become too expensive to sustain.
     
  11. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    The place of a government of, by, and for the People is to serve the People - in ways like insuring all the People in the most efficient way.
     
  12. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Okay, maybe you don't understand the term "pig in a poke". It basically means you're trying to sell me something that might work or might not work. It was originally used to mean somebody trying to sell a pig, but you can't see the pig. It could be a dog or whatever, but since you can't see it, you're expected to take it on faith that it's actually a pig.

    This is not ideology. It's just common sense. You have this idea, but it's just an idea. Get it up and running, and then compete with what I already have.
     
  13. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am familiar with the expression that does not apply.

    Careful, comparative scrutiny of the empirical data repeatedly reconfirms the superior paradigm. You can easily inspect it to your heart's content.

    Your subsidized coverage is still subject to continuing, soaring costs, and you, as a taxpayer, are on the hook for the bloated medical expenses of tens of millions uninsured. I don't see how even the most fanatical of ideologues can spin that as a good thing.
     
  14. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Well okay, so get it up and running, and then you will have something real to shill. Until then, it's just an idea.
     
  15. CKW

    CKW Well-Known Member

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    I think the low fat diet trend is not based on tangible data. Feel the same way regarding the hype for low cholesteral.
    But regardless I still stand by the concept of insurance and health industry thriving on a market based capitalism system with the end consumer being the market the system revolves around...not corporations and big business.
     
  16. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree on both of those too, the government got it wrong and it is raising the costs of healthcare and will for years to come

    I think consumers could pick their own doctors but have a public option, best of both worlds - or maybe just have some public hospitals and everyone else can buy insurance, but the public hospitals are just a co-pay, no insurance needed
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  17. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no.
     
  18. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Are they going to disappear or something?
     
  19. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Continue voting Trump, and republican...
    You must have got your pig, correct?

    If you dont vote for them..Then a good salesman knows when to stop arguing, and finalize the sale.

    No argument from me if you stay home again.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  20. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Trump has golf courses that you can actually look at and play on. You can ask people who have played the course how it stacks up against the golf course across town. It's there and doesn't require that I become a member in order for it to exist.

    Your golf course doesn't exist.
     
  21. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    Those hellbent on perpetuating the extravagantly wasteful system will insist the taxpayer must continue to subsidize their coverage no matter how expensive it becomes. At some point, the taxpayer will refuse.
     
  22. Natty Bumpo

    Natty Bumpo Well-Known Member

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    It's an idea that is validated by multiple empirical examples.

    The current health care crisis in the US - costs that continue to soar and that are already twice as much as advanced nations, and tens of millions uninsured and consigned to the taxpayer's tab - is a failed idea (that was never really anyone's "idea" but arose without any intelligent design.)

    No one would pretend the US offers a viable paradigm that any responsible nation would embrace as an efficient, effective, economical approach to healthcare.
     
  23. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Facts are facts and facts are the long wait times in Canada cause people to come here to get timely medical care and have a huge financial and health impact on Canadian citizens waiting for medical procedures. You want to look at socialized medicine through rose colored glasses while I look at all aspects of it both positive and negative just as I do with private healthcare. I'm actually open to the concept of single payer but every time I look into it the flaws seem to outweigh the benefits. Just as in all forms of socialism the promises sound great and you want to say looks good, where do I sign up? Then as you delve deeper and look at places it's been tried the promises just don't pan out.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  24. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    Read it
     
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  25. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    We can refuse to pay for the leeches?
    Cool
     

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