Why computers* will not become self aware.

Wow. you are sure full of opinions lacking any facts. Try learning something for a change. This is not my idea. This comes from experts on the subject consciousness.

One of the favored models for self awareness has been called the voices of the mind.
https://www.julianjaynes.org/pdf/jaynes_consciousness-voices-mind.pdf

The model essentially says that self-awareness arises as different parts of the brain interact with each other. Each part of the mind is in contact with the rest. It is the concert of all parts of the mind working separately but in communication with others that leads to the sense of a central self. Each part of the mind hears the others as the self.

When it comes to the internet, a more accurate analogy is that each memory location in a computer are like the brain cells. The computer acts as a regions of the mind. In human minds, no one region is a self-aware mind in its own right. It is only through the interaction with all of the other regions of the mind that consciousness arises. Likewise, as all of the non-conscience computers interact through the internet, a central consciousness arises.

This is considered to be the most likely artificial system to become self-aware because it has more memory and complexity than any other system on earth.

 

Also, I saw that you all still missed the critical issue that consciousness and self-awareness are not synonymous with free will [as far as we know]. A system might be fully aware but have no free will. It would have no way to tell us it's conscious.

We don't even know if we have free will.

As I said, your computer could be conscious. How could we know?

 

And you are full of airy fairy notions, leaping from one idea to the next never slowed down by the detail and filling the gaps with your own interpretation.
This is clearly demonstrated by comments like:

You cannot assume something could be so, just because you can't prove its not.
Otherwise you can claim anything.
Chickens communicate by telepathy and have formed a super brain.
It could be true how could you know?

 

Tigger, I think you have a confusion between what is life, and simulated life.

The distance between the two are infinite, there is no linear relationship between consciousness and simulated consciousness, no matter how sophisticated the program, it will always be a simulation, which can fool people, but, alas, it's' still a simulation. So, your 3/4ths the way their assertion just isn't the case.

AI is SI, simulated intelligence. Actually, self awareness is not the prerequisite for what constitutes life, as animals, very much sentient beings, are not self aware, nor are you particularly self aware when you are dreaming.

 

I don't think so. I have no opinion on a machine having a soul. Merely whether it could become self aware. I.E that if programming can make a machine self learning, which we already have. Could it also be programmed to consider its own existence, to look after itself.
Whether that self awareness is part of its programming or part of its process of learning.

 

I contend that self-awareness, 'life' in general, requires a soul, which is where life comes from.

I contend that there is a spiritual basis to life.

But, it's not a falsifiable claim. And, if that is the claim, it's not really something that can be debated, either one believes it, or not. at least not with current level of technology. But it makes sense to me.

Because machines do not have souls, they cannot, therefore, have self-awareness. but, the illusion of life can be achieved with sophisticated programming.

 

I think religion will be forced once again to play catch up, just as it has so many times before. I don't think this denigrates god (Who I do believe in, though probably not the conventional version you do) I think god is so beyond our imagination that everything we claimed about him was limited by ourselves.

 

The answer is nobody knows. Humans are creating machines that are far smarter than humans and over time these machines will have more advanced programming and learning capabilities along with the capacity to make adjustments towards attaining it's goals. Does anyone know the full potential of this technology?

 

Indeed not, I would say the limit is really our ability rather than the machines.

 

If an artificial intelligence is created that can obtain new information, that can make course changes, and given enough time, I'd say no one truly knows AI's limits...

 

No one truly knows any limit. What I meant was it will depend on mans ability to create that enquiring mind.

 

It already exists...

 

Now your just playing word games.

 

You are carefully designing a definition for life that ignores biology and instead promotes you religion to be the central issue. Then, you claim no animals have self awareness. However, self awareness has been found in apes, chimps, elephants, dolphins and others to various degrees. Suggesting that self awareness is due to some purely magical difference in humans can not be supported. The fact that the spectrum of self awareness in animals has human animals at one end is NOT evidence of it being magical.

Then, you are conflating the issues of this thread with your personal definition of life and your fundamental religious views.

I just do not see any legitimacy in that direction when it comes to the examination of our very real world.

There is NO element of science anywhere in your thought process.

You can deprecate AI today, but AI today is NOT the topic. So, any references to AI just don't really add anything to the OP issue other than as a statement of just one aspect of several concerning where we are - NOT as a statement of limitations on where we CAN be.

You're making the same mistakes the RCC made in Galileo's time. Galileo's cosmology HAD to be wrong, because it didn't include the RCC god as a required component. Now, YOU state that biology has to be wrong, because it doesn't include the RCC god as a required component.

 

Having a soul does not require self awareness. Animals are sentient beings, but are not self aware ( not like we are, but probably as much as we are when we are dreaming ) all living things have some degree of soul. It's an upward evolution. There is the genetic line, and the spiritual line, the genetic line evolves by natural selection, the spiritual just evolves, and occupies higher physical bodies as it progresses. EVentually, a spiritual beings reach enlightenment, which is a kind of fruition of the spirit, whereupon reincarnation is no longer necessary. That is the objective of practioners of Zen ,Sufism, Buddhism, Yoga, Taoism, and mysticism in general. I believe Christ was a mystic, but his esoteric teaching never made it to the Bible.

That's my belief, and as such, does not belong in the science forum. It's not something that can be debated.

It doesn't really conflict with science, my beliefs. It doesn't really negate biology, either. if you think it does, tell me how.

Where I believe consciousness is possible with human manufacture, is with Androids, a combination of machine and biology, but our level of technology has a long ways to go. Until then, it's just simulated awareness.

 

I have similar beliefs. You should check out "the law of one" if you havn't already. It's subject matter is along those lines. Interesting stuff.

 

I suspect when humans are programming AI, any 'awareness' that those humans possess will be programmed as well where applicable. I think this is especially necessary when trying to create AI that can 'learn and adjust' as necessary to achieve perceived goals. In order for AI to gather information, to digest and learn, and to make course adjustments, independent from humans, the AI programming will require all of the necessary human attributes...

 

I'm assuming you meant that self awareness doesn't require a soul, rather than that a sould doesn't require self awareness. I don't see any evidence of there being a soul, yet animals from amoeba through humans display a significant range of self awareness - from zero to a lot.

So, are you proposing that souls evolve along with other evolution?

If you think your concept of soul has anything at all to do with enabling human function such as self awareness, then it certainly does conflict with science and biology specifically.

I don't find in your posts a clear differentiating characteristic of the actual and the simulated other than that one has been manufactured. It's certainly the case that the capabilities of animals including humans are actual - they exist and can be measured. And, manufacturing many of those capabilities is way beyond our abilities today.

But, if/when those capabilities ARE manufactured, I don't see a justification for disregarding them simply on the grounds that they were manufactured.

 

No, I'm not.

That's it. An animal has a soul, but it not self aware, hence the point made.

when I say 'self aware' I mean aware that one is aware. Only Humans have that.

Lower animals are aware in the sense of your level of awareness when you are dreaming. You're not that self aware when dreaming noting that consciousness of dreaming is mostly done in memory, you remember dreaming, but you don't remember being self aware when your dreaming.
If you think you are aware when you are dreaming, that's not dreaming, it's called 'reverie'.

The evolution of a soul is not really evolution, it's a slow growth.
Evolution occurs in the genetic line, the physical world.

Much, if not most, ( but not all ) traits are in the body. There are characteristics of a soul, noting that there is an astral body, as well, that propell it towards the kinds of bodies the soul will reincarnate into, having a lot to do with frequency attraction ( or some abstract spiritual harmonic ) but the biology of the physical body has a lot to do with traits, ability, etc. Given that I'm into the arts, am a musician, photographer, if I were to die, it wouldn't be likely I would reincarnate in Somalia, or Japan, I would probably find my way into a similar familial background here in America. I have strong affinity for Brazil, maybe some history there in past lives, I don't know. I am able to duplicate some of the difficult nasal vowel sounds in Brazilian Portuguese, but no way can I do an Irish Accent. A Brazilian I know thinks I was raised in Brazil, my accent is so good No one really knows, but some people are able to remember, especially children, there are many cases of this. But, the body I pick up, could have a magnificent brain, where would excel, or it could be mediocre, where my desire to excel was just as strong as the previous life, but the limitations of the body prevent it. So, I would say it's a combination of both.

I don't think man can 'manufacture consciousness'. If man were able conjure a biological android, the consciousness would be from a soul finding the body, just as it does in the womb when a soul reincarnates. But, mankind, years from now, might be able to manufacture an android. Now, aliens are very advanced, as are the 'greys' which are said to be androids, and they learn about us by neurological engagement. I don't know how it works, but abductees often describe a grey putting his head/eyes, just about touching the abductee's eyes, they get right up close, and the abductees report they can sense the grey scanning their mind, as if they are downloading all that is in their brain and I think they do this via the optical nerve of the human, which is why they get right close ( but, it's speculation ). they have photogaphic memories, and can download knowledge. They are not actually 'programmed' by aliens ( and I imagine when we reach their state of technology, it will be along those lines ) their knowledge is downloaded from other aliens and humans via neurological engagement. one abductee related, testing a grey for self awareness, directed a question to the grey designed to get the grey to self reflect, and it almost broke down, and a higher up alien ( not a grey, but a bona fide alien ) stepped in and told the abductee to stop doing that. From that, I gather that the greys are not self aware. This is detailed in Jim Sparks book, 'the Keepers".

 

This is your take I assume, as I don't see that evidenced in any of the numerous branches of biology.

But, you are suggesting that it directly follows evolution - not that it follows from the age of the life form or some other age.

Astral body?? Sorry, you just flipped to relgion.

There is no evidence of the existence of a soul.

That idea is a PURELY religious idea.

Until there is some sort of evidence of its existance, it remains totally in the realm of religion.

 

Of course it's my take, and I stated as much. But, you'll never find evidence of it in biology or science, hence I stated my position didn't belong in a science forum.

No, I'm not. In fact, I suspect that evolution follows spiritual growth.
For example, is the reason women do not get as bald as men, a biological phenomenon,
or that men wouldn't mate with baldheaded women, and, as such, evolution excludes them?
But, that a man doesn't find a woman attractive without hair, is that biological, or emotional/spiritual?
I don't know the answer to that.

Not sure about it, but it's mentioned a lot in mystical groups.

And I've so stated. I believe it because I've had out of body experiences, full consciousness.
I also could sense an astral body, an ethereal body, while I was exterior. I recall my arms and hands, I could see them, they had sensation, but they were ethereal, could go right through things, it was an eerie feeling. I was laying down, and then I got up, but I saw my body laying still, and a reached and put my harms and hands right through the back rest of the sofa, and then it was over, I was back in. It's happened only a couple of times in my life, though I have no control over it. While I was looking at my hands in the ethereal state, I remember having conscious thought, I remember remarking on what was happening to me, it was a 'wow---is this really happening' kind of experience. In dreams, I never remember being self aware. That is why I don't feel I was dreaming.

That is why I believe it.

 

Whether we know the reason for the path evolution has taken is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

There are numerous factors in evolution. Your supposition is highly unlikely

I don't know that I've ever met someone who hasn't had an out of body experience.

And, that primarily includes dreams. This is NOT to suggest that every dream that each individual has is of a nature that might be considered an out of body experience.

But, our brains are FULLY capable of presenting realistic but fictional experiences when not in a fully awake state.

The idea that people who have gotten to the point of being declared dead or nearly dead can have such experiences hits me as absolutey expectable.

Such individuals already had the physical capacity to experience fictional but realistic experiences when not awak. When anywhere near death, that doesn't go away. In fact, it can surely be advanced by the depricated data stream brains receive from oxygen starved sensory equipment as well as the turmoil that exists in autonomic systems - systems that are controled by interaction with our brains, but not available to our conscious minds, such as feedback received by brains from failing organs, nervous system, etc.

The idea that this indicats a requirement for the supernatural is just plain ludicrous. No supernatural is required AT ALL.

And, it isn't even SLIGHTLY surprising that the images and events conjured by a sleeping or dying brain are strongly related to personal beliefs and experiences. What ELSE would dying brains present? Some OTHER religion??

 

I agree, without self awareness you can't have self preservation. Without that, learning machines would constantly go beyond their limits and damage themselves

 

Except that I on one particular occasion I had an OOBE while under during dental work, and I told the dentist about the conversation he had with his assistant, small talk about the assistant's courses she was taking in community college, the conversation of which I shouldn't have heard while under anesthesia. That I did that startled him. He told me it has happened before, but he couldn't explain how it happens. I wouldn't call it a religious experience, it was rather matter-of-fact, like walking into one room and then another.

 

And no one knows the potential of AI. How will it initially be programmed? If it can obtain new information, learn and adjust, can it's prescribed goal go off course? In an AI application, how critical to mankind is the AI allowed to take action...like killing an enemy? Over time will this AI modify the definition of 'enemy'? We don't yet know...