Why Did Torpedoes Go Out of fashion as anti surface ship weapons?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by Dayton3, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Individually, yes. Which is why you launch hundreds of them.
     
  2. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    There are approximately what? Two nations on Earth that could launch an attack featuring hundreds of anti ship missiles simultaneously?
     
  3. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    Three. US, Russia, China. They are also the only countries that would need to.
     
  4. Kash

    Kash Member

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    But what are you going to do against a sub?
    Arm them with anti sub torps. When and if, you need to sink a tanker, simply use two torpedoes. The case when you need to sink a heavy transport very fast and other means are unavailable is extremely rare.


    Agree. Modern airborne systems can detect rotating helicopter blades of a heli that is standing on the ground! Reaching torpedo launch distance is very possible. You can launch from 60km +GPS or Sonar guidance. But the ship, even old one, will simply outrun the torpedo. Torpedo has a very distinctive, very high and loud, sound signature.


    Absolutely safe to say that we have absolutely no idea what will happen. There are so many variables there are so many things that might go sideways for both sides, that it is absolutely safe to say that no side has any idea if a modern defense system can guaranty a 90% protection for 90% of operation time from a single, extremely outdated anti ship missile such as Harpoon. We simply do not know and I am quite sure that nobody does (IMHO)
     
  5. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    1. Ships carry ASW helicopters and torpedoes already.

    2. When in modern warfare will it be necessary for the US to sink a tanker? It would be more realistic for us to disable one and board it, which a modern destroyer is more than capable of doing.

    3. Launching from a range of 60km means your helicopter has been shot at for a distance of 250+km. How likely are they to survive getting to 60km?
     
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Torpedoes, being under water, have a lot more drag to contend with -- they can only go so far and so fast.
    Missiles, regardless of the available countermeasures, are more effective.
     
  7. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    But not disable. Stop the ship and you can do pretty much anything you want to it.
     
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  8. Kash

    Kash Member

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    I thought you wanted to replace a torpedo with a missile in general. I am trying to say that a US destroyer does not need a dedicated anti ship torp, they can be replaced by two light anti-sub\torpedo defense torpedo.

    If the hostilities with NK will begin, boarding a NK transport near shores of NK will be both dangerous and useless. If the crew will refuse to surrender immediately, if they will be willing to sacrifice themselves and their ship, rather than to give up their precious cargo of petrol... Just torp them and forget all about it :).

    Agree that such a scenario has very low probability but 50% of modern ships are built in China, what will be in 20 years?

    In case of absence of an air born radar platform, a heli at 3m alt should be able to crawl to a distance of 20-40km, depending on ECM, weather, discipline, other threats and situation. I am talking about a cheap low-tech shore defense system consisting of a launch pad in the woods, a cheap commercially available helicopter, and a home made torpedo (which is 100 times cheaper to develop and manufacture than a proper anti-ship missile). Same can be applied to a cheap torpedo boat.

    The system is not practical I agree, but it is inexpensive! :)

    US has no need for a dedicated anti-ship torpedo, but other countries can find plenty of uses for it to fight the bloodthirsty capitalists :)
     
  9. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Five types of Russian weapons which USA are afraid of



    # Five is the anti-ship peroxide vapor-gas torpedoes “53-65”, created in Soviet times They can be extremely dangerous for US naval vessels, as they have a special active acoustic homing system, protection which America has not tested yet.

    [​IMG]
    Quad torpedo tubes aboard Admiral Vinogradov (BPD-554) in 1992. U.S. Navy Photograph No. DN-SC-93-04775.

    Source; the same source that the CIA uses...-> https://www.sofmag.com/five-types-of-russian-weapons-which-usa-are-afraid-of/
     
  10. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  11. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Range and speed?
     
  12. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are aware that the Russians have an anti ship torpedo that can swim through the sea at 100 MPH.

    I've been a member of the U.S. Naval Institutes since 1976 and have had three articles published in "Proceedings" The USNI is the think tank for the U,S, Navy and Marine Corps. It's also the open forum of opining on war fare depending who the CnC is. The USNI was heavily censored during the Clinton and Obama administrations.

    Naval warfare tactics have significantly changed during the past decade.

    Before warships confronted each other over the horizon maybe 300 miles. Today warships will confront each other from 100 miles to 50 miles. When the anti ship missiles have been exhausted...naval gunfire.

    Surface radar is line of sight. At 6' and ground level (sea level) 3 miles. The higher the radar antenna the more detection range. Maybe 24 miles.

    A sea skimming anti ship missile traveling at mach 2.5 is detected from 25 miles away and what is the reaction time ? Ten seconds !

    You better not have a Obama Moron Officer Corps officer in command of the ship.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  13. JakeStarkey

    JakeStarkey Well-Known Member

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  14. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You are wrong.

    The only anti torpedo counter offensive systems are anti counter acoustic torpedoes. They make a lot of noise sounding like the screws of a ship or a submarine.

    There are no anti torpedo defensive systems in the inventory dealing with old torpedoes designs or wire guided torpedoes or wake following torpedoes.

    There is an anti torpedo - torpedo in the R&D phase today to deal with all torpedo but just in the R&D phase. A torpedo that actually intercepts and destroy an enemy torpedo. Maybe still a decade or two from entering the fleet.

     
  15. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    You didn't answer my question. Range and speed?
     
  16. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    All of your questions can be answered here -> http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.php

    533 mm (21") VA-111 "Shkval" (Squall)
    Ship Class Used On Submarines
    Date Of Design Began in 1960
    Date In Service 1977 (service prototypes)
    1998 (terminal search version)
    Weight 5,952 lbs. (2,700 kg)
    Overall Length 323 in (8.200 m)
    Explosive Charge 1,543 lbs. (700 kg)
    Range / Speed 12,000 - 16,400 yards (11,000 - 15,000 m) / 200 knots
    Earlier versions may have had a maximum range of 7,700 yards (7,000 m)
    Power Solid-fuel Rocket
    Rocket-propelled torpedo meant to be used as a last ditch weapon. Generates a gas-cavity which gives it great speed but also prevents it from having any sort of homing guidance system. For this reason, a newer version was developed which runs out at high speed but then slows to search for a target. The first tests of the modernized Shkval torpedo were held by the Russian Pacific Fleet in the spring of 1998. An export version, denoted as "E" version, was shown at the IDEX 99 exhibition in Abu Dhabi in early 1999. This export version reportedly does not have the terminal guidance system.

    This was not the kind of torpedo that sank the Russian submarine Kursk. She was sunk by an explosion of a 65-76 "Kit" torpedo.




    533 mm (21") UGST
    Ship Class Used On Surface combatants, MTBs and submarines
    Date Of Design
    N/A
    Date In Service 1990s
    Weight 4,850 lbs. (2,200 kg)
    Overall Length 283 in (7.200 m)
    Explosive Charge 440.9 lbs. (200 kg)
    Range / Speed Max range: 43,800 yards (40,000 m)
    Max speed: 50 knots
    Power
    Mono-propellant fueled axial piston engine with pump-jet
    Acoustic wake-follower universal torpedo with active/passive homing. Could be used to depths of 1,650 feet (500 m)




    533 mm (21") USET-80
    Ship Class Used On Submarines
    Date Of Design N/A
    Date In Service 1980
    Weight 4,410+ lbs. (2,000+ kg)
    Overall Length 311 in (7.900 m)
    Explosive Charge 440 - 661 lbs. (200 - 300 kg)
    Range / Speed about 22,000 yards (20,000 m) / 40 - 50 knots
    Power Silver-zinc battery
    Acoustic wake following torpedo with active/passive homing. Can be used to depths of over 1,300 feet (400 m).
     
  17. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    None of these weapons are a threat until the platform gets withing visual range, and alert the target(s) to its presence.
    Not sure why you consider these to be significant threats.
     
  18. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Torpedoes are never in visual range, they are below the sea surface.

    An incoming torpedo might be detected by passive sonar and the sonar man has his **** together.

    What you are dealing with is reaction time be it a torpedo or an incoming anti ship missile skimming twenty feet above the sea surface at Mach 2.5 (1,918 MPH)

    An Arleigh Burke destroyer operating independently from a carrier strike group with no eyes in the sky (E-2 Hawkeye) wouldn't detect an incoming salvo of eight SS-N-12 (Sand Box) or SS-N-26 (Sun Burn) anti ship missiles traveling at Mach 2.5 until it was 24 miles away giving the ship about 48 seconds to take evasive action.

    ( I don't think the Russian Navy would waste a SS-N-12 on an Arleigh Burke destroyer but would use the SS-N-26 instead.
    The SS-N-12 with its 2,000 lb. semi armor piecing warhead was designed for one purpose, to sink U.S. Navy super carriers, not destroyers.)

    U.S. Navy SOP would be to put the stern of the ship towards the incoming missiles threat and hope that the ships CIWS of RAM's (RIM-116 Rolling Frame Missile) can take out as many of the incoming anti ship missiles. The ships last hope is its Phalanx CIWS that can only deal with one target at a time.
     
  19. Questerr

    Questerr Banned

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    So less than 25 miles each? Which means our ships have been shooting at the ships carrying those torpedoes for about 50 miles.
     
  20. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Only if the ships have eyes in the sky to detect those enemy ships that are over 50 miles away.

    Radar is line of sight.

    If you are six feet tall and are standing at sea level the horizon is three miles away. The higher you or the radar is, the further the horizon is.

    An Arleigh Burke's radars can detect a ship that is just about 50 miles away. But is it a warship or a fishing trawler ???

    The Mathematics behind the Calculation
    [​IMG]This calculation should be taken as a guide only as it assumes the earth is a perfect ball 6378137 metres radius. It also assumes the horizon you are looking at is at sea level. A triangle is formed with the centre of the earth (C) as one point, the horizon point (H) is a right angle and the observer (O) the third corner. Using Pythagoras's theorem we can calculate the distance from the observer to the horizon (OH) knowing CH is the earth's radius (r) and CO is the earth's radius (r) plus observer's height (v) above sea level.

    Sitting in a hotel room 10m above sea level a boat on the horizon will be 11.3km away. The reverse is also true, whilst rowing across the Atlantic, the very top of a mountain range 400m high could be seen on your horizon at a distance of 71.4 km assuming the air was clear enough.

    -The AN/SPS-67(V)3 or(V)5, installed aboard Flight I, II, and IIA ships, is a dedicated surface search radar used to find and track other ships as well as low-flying contacts. The radar uses a rotating (19 rpm) solid-state antenna with a maximum range in excess of 54 nmi. Relative to a surface search/navigation radar, the AN/SPS-67 is significantly more powerful (280 kW peak power vs. 30 kW for the SPS-73(V)12).

    -The AN/SPQ-9B is a rotating, phased array surface search and fire control radar that will replace the AN/SPS-67 on Flight III ships. The AN/SPQ-9B boasts best-in-class clutter rejection and rapid target acquisition, making it well-suited against high-speed, stealthy targets such as cruise missiles. Open sources indicate a maximum range of around 10 nmi.

    -The AN/SPS-73(V)12 fills the surface search/navigation role aboard Flight I, II, and IIA vessels before DDG-87. It is a rotating short range radar set which provides target information in two dimensions (range and bearing) and has the capability to detect surface contacts as well as low-flying aircraft and missiles.

    -The Sperry Marine BridgeMaster E rotating surface search/navigation radar is used aboard Flight IIA vessels DDG-87 and later, plus Flight III ships. The BridgeMaster E is a widely-deployed model known for at-sea reliability, which is crucial for a navigation radar. It can also detect low-flying aerial targets at up to 600 knots.

    source -> https://whitefleet.net/2017/07/31/the-arleigh-burke-class-destroyer-ddg-51-an-in-depth-guide/




     
  21. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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  22. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I thought some types of radars (don't know if this applies to ship mounted ones) have over the horizon capability?
     
  23. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That's what I've been told.

    The ping of an active sonar is so audible loud that it would blast the eardrums of an enemy frogman and bring him to the service.

    Sound travels an extremely long distance under water.

    That's why warships only use their active sonar when going in for the kill. Active sonar will give away a ships position.

    During the Cold War the U.S. Navy and Soviet Navy played a game of cat and mouse. When either an American or Russian sub detected the other side submarine and came up with a firing solution they would send one ping using the active sonar that was a message, if this was a real war the ping you heard would have been a torpedo.

    "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage" is an excellent book that spent some time on these cat and mouse games that the U.S. Navy and Soviet Navy played during the Cold War.


     
  24. Dayton3

    Dayton3 Well-Known Member

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    I've read that radar emissions can be detected at roughly ten times the distance that the radar can detect another object.

    Do such ratios ring true for sonars as well?
     
  25. APACHERAT

    APACHERAT Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Radar isn't my department Dayton3 but I've heard the same thing.

    Heard the same thing about active sonars.

    Maybe PF member Mushroom might pop in, he was a Marine grunt for about ten years before shipping over to the Army and becoming an Oozlefinch ( Air Defense Artillery/Missile Air Defense)

    Back in the early 1960's my parents bought a top of the line Packard Bell stereo council system. Back when America was great TV's, record stereos, radio receivers,etc. were furniture.
    [​IMG]
    The best speakers back in the day.

    One thing many started to hear during the late 60's and early 70's when you got to one end of the radio tuner at one frequency you heard all of these weird sounds. People wanted to know what were they were hearing ?

    We were told we were hearing the Soviets early warning radars thousands of miles away.

    The USA had the DEW Line ( Distant Early Warning Radar Line.) to detect a soviet launch of ICBM's or bombers attack and the Soviets had their own DEW Line. What we were hearing was the Soviets distant early warning radars.

    Now being at 50 feet above sea level and numerous mountain ranges between Manhattan Beach, Ca. and the Soviet Union thousands of miles away, no way could the radar detect a missile launch at 50 feet above sea level until it was thousands of feet above. But we could pick up the radars on our radios.

    It was fun living during the Cold War when you were a kid.

    [​IMG]
    Map showing the U.S. DEWLine Stations across the Arctic in Alaska, Canada, and Greenland.

    History and the Current Status of the Russian Early-Warning System -> http://russianforces.org/podvig/2002/03/history_and_the_current_status.shtml
     

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