Why do debates about religion get so negative?

I attempted to separate the notion of goading, from you specifically, by delineating using the phrase ' On to your points...' which I knew were your ideas as opposed to a defense of what you interpret another's ideas to be. I don't know if you are among the 'goaders' but I'll take your word for it.

There are zealots on both sides and I have found I am in a peculiar position in this forum as opposed to the other ones I have been in. My normal goal when I post in these atheist/ theist debates, to 'gently' correct the use of stereotypes, hyperbole, and plain ol stupidity so as to prevent more stereotyping, hyperbole and stupidity. Trust me, I see a hell of a lot of religious zealotry and overkill on these boards, but I can't gently correct squat without the atheist hit squad following ten minutes later and using my post as artillery from which they expect to annihilate theism. They don't want to stop hyperbole, stereotyping or stupidity in religious posts. Those are the making of their wet dreams! I shy away and keep my mouth shut rather than lead them on a search and destroy mission!

its very strange to see a whole pack of atheist predators smelling for blood here, when I usually come across only one or two, among a ten or twelve of the Jerry Falwell 'religious zealots' talking occasional anti-atheist smack, when they aren't after the gays, the pro-choicers etc.

I agree with you that the most solid foundation for morality will rest on reason or knowledge, but insofar as religious values expressed, often reflect the same result, and may enhance the affect, I am fine with a ' Thou shalt not Kill' thrown in there right along with reason and knowledge. Dr, King used it as part of his war against the Johnson aggression against Vietnam

 

You do know that Dr. King had an ally in L.B.J....don't you?

As far as I am concerned L.B.J. is responsible for thousands of dead members of the U.S. Military as he would not allow the U.S. Military to fight to win.

AboveAlpha

 

The reason what some men said thousands of years ago, instead of today lies in the fact that what they were saying is not actually said today, based upon a personal experience of those states of consciousness. So you have to reach back into the past, to hear about it. For indeed it is a revolutionary thing, given that the world as we know it, is a creation of the human ego. Not the physical world, but the psychological world, that reality.

But of course when it comes to Christianity, this state of consciousness, Christ taught of, is not a part of Christianity, and instead its a dogmatic religion , based upon a blood sacrifice, and the idea of a salvation that doesn't change human consciousness. It is just another belief system, which offers nothing, outside of some security for the ego, fire insurance. And therefore is shallow and empty, just as the other religions are today.

Real religion is a life changing thing, not some silly belief, as held by Christianity, islam, Judaism, in some anthropomorphic god, that is as flawed and emotional as the men who created him, in their thinking brains. These fabrications cannot change man, inwardly. There is nothing sacred in them at all. All of these religions are shallow, superficial, and only offer up some illusion of security for the ego. These people all want to go to be with jesus, but they don't want to have to die to do that. LOL.

But don't get what I say confused with some New Age rubbish. That too is nothing more than the creation of an ego seeking some sort of security for itself. The world's oldest con game is seen in religion as we know it. It goes something like this... "You don't know about God, but I do, and if you listen to me, and contribute to my guidance, with your money, I will show you all that you need to know." These men will even have ancient books to support what they will teach you. It's a confidence game, and a very lucrative one at that. I once saw a preacher, with diamond rings on a couple fingers, drove a Mercedes, and wore Brooks Brothers suits. His con game was, give me your money so I can help save others, and God will return that money to you tenfold. LOL.

The truth is, when you have billions of people, who want security and eternal life for the own egos, you can sell that to them, and they think they are getting quite the bargain. That is just the fact of the matter, the inconvenient truth in regards to organized religion. Now, not all religious authority is out to con people, and some of these preachers actually believe what they preach. But a choice made by the person to believe in this rubbish, is driven by fear. The fear of death, of losing the ego, of it going to hell, and so on. A genuine God would not use fear to coerce man into believing in him. The idea of that is utter nonsense, It's cosmic absurdity.

Yet there may indeed be a mystical experience that can change the consciousness of man. But you don't need another human being to show you the way. For it cannot be shown, or given to another. And such an experience will never create an organized religion, and then try to sell that to others. Personally, I think Christ, the Buddha and lao Tzu and perhaps Krishna had this experience, and pointed it out as a fact to others. And then, instead of looking to where they were pointing, man turned them into an idol, a god, and worshipped them, instead of looking to where their finger was pointing.


Atheists are not afraid to say that anything outside of the material world is bull(*)(*)(*)(*). But they are no better, than someone who says the gods exist. They are in the same mental state, and that state is a state that claims to know, what is unknowable. So, the atheist has an opinion, and the theist has an opinion. Yet both confuse their opinion with fact. For how does either KNOW? I see nothing but plain old ego arrogance with both groups.

Neither group, nor even the most intelligent scientist KNOWS the nature of consciousness, yet they both will make great claims as to know whether or not some Immeasurable exists. They do not know. They merely assume. This is the fact of the matter, and it cannot be logically refuted. Now, the chances that an anthropomorphic god exists, as laid out by the monotheistic religions, with its characteristics and nature, is highly improbable at best. Rationality points to this, for it is just too silly, too incoherent, and stinks of a creative brain, just making stuff up. But the same cannot be said of something that is immeasurable and exists outside of time, which doesn't look like a man, and which thought cannot ever conceive as an image. Some timeless intelligence which can manifest the material universe with its order, and all that is within it. For that is indeed possible, yet since proof involves thought and time, no proof will ever be available. This doesn't mean that it does exists, but it does mean that it could exist. To say that it cannot exist is pure arrogance, that comes from a vastly limited knowledge. A limited knowledge can never may exclamations in this area, without exhibiting arrogance.

Atheists are just as arrogant as those that believe in these gods. The only rational human being is an agnostic, the only intellectually honest human is agnostic. For they say they simply do not know. And that is the truth here. No one really knows, if an immeasurable thing exists outside of time. If one does exist, one could call that God, but one can call it anything they want. Just don't start creating images of it that looks like man. Or any image whatsoever, for they would necessarily be false, a fabrication. If something like that does exist, man can never KNOW it. So, perhaps the best thing is to just live your life being kind to people, for we are all in this life boat together, and we should make the best of it as possible, without hurting others, for we can experience what it feels like to be hurt.

 

Not on the issue of Vietnam, he didn't, at least not in the last year of King's life![video=youtube_share;b80Bsw0UG-U]http://youtu.be/b80Bsw0UG-U[/video]

 

Ref. Post #179: People have been claiming that gods exist since they had their first thoughts. Not one on their favorite imaginary buddies has ever done anything godly. That's why gods don't exist. When one shows up in all of its majesty and splendor as previously described and does something godly it would be a start for maybe thinking that such a being is real. Until then gods don't exist.

 

To believe you know this requires belief that you know more about another's experiences than they know themself. Disbelief in prayer is also a supremacist belief.

 

God is real, His reality is not unknowable.

 

No, belief that some magic man loves you and will help you because you prayed to the "right god" (and non-believers need not apply) is a supremacist belief!

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Let's see him prove himself. I would if I had his super-powers, so that many many more people would avoid a "lake of fire". But I'm more compassionate than god/Jesus, so I understand why he doesn't do that.

 

Yet I have seen you judge atheists on this forum.

Advice is often based upon or at least initiated by a judgment. Is "God hates (*)(*)(*)(*)" advice or judgment? Answer: It all depends upon whom you ask.

Interesting... yet I have seen you make what are in my opinion generalized statements that demonize atheists on this very forum.

 

To clarify my post about vile humans was not encompassing all atheists, it was specifically intended for Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. Sorry for the confusion.
... to add, I do judge as I am human. Never claimed to be perfect, but your example is a misundersting.

 

King did not agree with L.B.J. on Vietnam and neither did most people.

But make no mistake...L.B.J. was very Pro Equality.

AboveAlpha

 

GOD is REAL to YOU!

Here is the thing....don't you think that I...an Agnostic...or anyone else including Atheists would just LOVE to know and have definitive PROOF that a LOVING AND CARING GOD EXISTED???

OF COURSE WE WOULD!!!

Thing is....we would NOT want such a GOD existing if the tales in the Old Testament were fact.

Such a GOD is no GOD I would want existing.

Thing is....if a GOD exists...it's nothing like you think it is.

AboveAlpha

 

Its a forum. A political one even. Being nice is out the window.

This is a love/hate place for me and I think most here hate my pompous overbearing indifference. (think about it)

 

God is as real to me as your ghost is to you.

Sorry you don't know Him. Your father was probably different than your perception of him as well. That's simply the nature of perception. But you are not capable of knowing what God is to me.

 

Moses was the original pushy religious salesman. When people didn't buy his product he killed them. Mohammed followed his example. Paul did the same thing for a while and then he discovered the use of fear as a selling tool. Be glad that one of those guys didn't show up at your door.

 

Mohammad is as bad as Moses you say? That's pretty insulting to Mohammad, don't you think?

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I don't hear voices in my head (that are not my own), so no, I'm not capable of knowing what god is to you, that is true I guess.

 

While I can see what you mean, I do think that people that think prayer works don't understand cause and effect very well. Their invisible friend fails them in, say, nine times as many prayers as he helps them, so they attribute that one successful prayer as being influenced by some invisible man in the sky and not to coincidence. It's coincidence, folks!

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But how do you know that Zeus is not real? How do you know that Thor is not real? Or Wotan, or Horas, or Mithras?

 

Of course not....I respect you right to believe what you wish.

But as well YOU are not capable of understanding or knowing what a GOD would actually be.

AboveAlpha