Why Do Some People Say The Government Shouldn't Expand?

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Bored Dead, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Bored Dead

    Bored Dead New Member

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    I came up with this economic program that required the creation of a new government agency (It's linked down below if you're interested) and one of the arguments someone used was that (paraphrasing) "More government can't do anything", and this was a strange argument to me. So now I am curious, how did you, someone holding this belief, gain this political belief? I don't want to be rude, but also why do you inherently believe any expansion of government will fail, just because it is government?

    So please, where/how did you get this political belief, and what facts/arguments support it?
     
  2. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    It's cuttin' into their corporate action and they don't much like it. THEY want to be the dictators of who has what.
     
  3. liberalminority

    liberalminority Well-Known Member

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    Ever been to the DMV, unemployment office, welfare office, social security administration, all are bloated bureaucratic messes of taxpayer money.

    Everything run by government is inefficient, so until an agency run by the government comes along and disproves what we have all seen, they will all be considered wasteful expansions.
     
  4. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Everything? People seem to like their SSI. I understand the super wealthy want to privatize it though. MORE for them if they screw the majority out of existing wealth. I understand you guys want to take over ownership of roads and bridges too. Great idea....your side certainly hasn't crashed the economy sine 2008. I can't wait until your crew gets back into the White House. Should be "curtains" for everybody this time around. Harder and faster. Woohoo.
     
  5. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Guess what so do you.

    To the OP 1 in 5 now work for state federal and local government. When do we reach the point where we simply cannot afford any more government employees?
     
  6. RtWngaFraud

    RtWngaFraud Banned

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    Perhaps when the corporate raiders prove they can stop raping society. Till then, no hope of it.
     
  7. Bored Dead

    Bored Dead New Member

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    Well, from my history class, the homestead act was a success. It brought people to the west, and it had to expand government to have more bureaucracy to handle people wanting to apply to get land out west.

    You might not like the large lines in these departments of government, but that doesn't mean they're inefficient. Are the workers at those places doing nothing all day? Probably not.

    Do you think those departments are important?

    I guess you could say handling the added bureaucracy is inefficient, since nothing is being produced, but think about in the future when they will be taken over by computer programs or AIs, would they be inefficient then?
     
  8. Awryly

    Awryly New Member Past Donor

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    Cons think they create wealth.

    Truth is the state produces wealth. It funds the education, science research, infrastructure that private enterprise predates on. And then pretends has not created its wealth.

    Then, when it gets into trouble, it runs to the state to bail it out.
     
  9. Bored Dead

    Bored Dead New Member

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    When taxes are too low to sustain government or we don't produce enough to sustain the population.

    Also your statistic may be incorrect as this statistic, collected from the government, is far lower, at 8% (it is a little old but I can't see government growing that greatly in 5 years)
     
  10. Roelath

    Roelath Well-Known Member

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    Government expansion in nearly all areas in the American Government will result in a net negative in Freedom & Finance for almost everyone involved. I typed almost everyone for reason... When the Laws and Regulations put into place support the Major Corporate players rather than actually creating a fair system there are some major problems. People consistently type on these forums asking for more Regulation in some matter but, they're merely giving the "Evil" Corporations the tools to control more of the financial market far beyond what they already have. If you haven't forgotten... Legal bribery (Lobbying and Campaign Donations) are still quite prevalent, that doesn't even include the illegal bribes that get tossed out there. Now you're looking to expand the very system to control more that is corrupt? Funny. Give the Crony Capitalists & Authoritarians Police man power and the Military... totally logical.
     
  11. Johnny-C

    Johnny-C Well-Known Member

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    Yep... they call it "freedom". They want the freedom to oppress those who don't agree with their agenda.

    Corporations do not give the "people" any power; but via government, the PEOPLE have the most power they will ever have.
     
  12. sparky2

    sparky2 Banned

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    I wish this were true, but alas, you are operating under a misconception.

    a. Expanding Governmental influence on our lives doesn't empower us, but rather it usually ends up costing us our freedoms and liberties.

    b. If you equate the regular receipt of a welfare check in the mailbox with 'power', then there is a chance you do not understand the meaning of the word, 'power'.

    Here's the bottom line for me, and I can say this will some authority because I have worked in, with, for, and around the federal government for much of my working life:

    There is a culture of uselessness and lethargy that exists in the Government Service.
    That culture, which allows for nearly-constant waste, fraud, and abuse, makes the federal government inefficient, ineffective, and a waste of your tax dollars.

    1/3rd of the government employees do nearly all of the the work.
    They work hard, with integrity, and with the taxpayers in mind.

    The middle 1/3rd come to work for the hours they are paid for, and little else. Minimum effort is the credo.
    Hanging on for an eventual retirement check, they do only what is minimally expected of them.

    The bottom 1/3rd (and this should anger you off as a taxpayer) do little to nothing for their considerable pay, and they laugh all the way to the bank.
    They commit timekeeping fraud, they steal a paycheck, and they get away with murder. (Witness the GSA scandals of late.)
    And if anybody challenges them on their lack of work ethic, they invariably file a grievance or lawsuit to make the accuser pipe-down and look the other way.
    Worse yet, the American Federation of Government Workers (AFGE) supports this type of activity, and even encourages it.

    It is a climate and a culture of weakness in management, political-correctness, a union-shop mentality, and fear of truth-telling that allow this sad state of affairs to exist.

    ANY time I hear of a new federal regulation or law that calls for the standing-up of a new government agency (and Obamacare alone accounts for over 150 new government agencies alone), I cringe at the thought of all those people going onto the government dole (i.e.; drawing a government paycheck for doing nothing) and draining our tax dollars in a fruitless endeavor.



    .
     
  13. Gator

    Gator New Member

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    Govt of a certain size and scope is productive, above that threshold it is counterproductive.

    Because govt is successful in one area does not mean it will always be successful.

    Long lines are a clear symptom of inefficiency simply from the lost productivity of the people waiting in line.

    The individual govt employees may be working at peak efficiency, but they might be implementing inefficient processes - the problem is the system, not the individual employees.

    But we have all seen individual govt employees wasting time and working slowly.

    Generally, no they are not important. Some of the tasks they perform are important (such as issueing a drivers license), but the overall departments are not important and could be greatly streamlined or eliminated entirely.

    But even if they performed vital functions, that is not an excuse for inefficiency.

    Thats it right there - you already know the govt is wasteful and inefficient.

    Inefficiency is not just about standing in line either. Its excessive regulation and intrusiveness. Its govt regulation not to make life smoother but for the sake of social engineering to force people to act in a manner "the govt" thinks is appropriate.

    The "govt" may make implementation easier through AI or programs, but the govt will not reduce their power or control over people. The menial mechanics of govt might be handled in a smoother manner (such as renewing a DL over the internet) but the bureaucracy behind the mechanics will still be in place. Govt does not give up power and control, and that is what the current situation is about - power and control.
     
  14. garyd

    garyd Well-Known Member

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    Utter flipping nonsense.

    1st the federal governmment of the USA funds about 5-10% of the cost of public education while creating 30-40%.

    2nd none of those things are in and of themselves wealth. They can, under the right circumstance, lead to the creation of wealth, but they are not in and of themselves wealth.

    3rd Who the hell is raping whom? The private sector funds government though taxes fines and user fees.

    The 8% number is derived by leaving out school teachers and hospital workers that are on the government payroll. That by itself is easily another 12%.
     
  15. fmw

    fmw Well-Known Member

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    Awryly, please. Use some common sense. Government doesn't create wealth. It spends wealth. if it created wealth, it would not need to tax. All net wealth derives from business profits. Every single dollar.

    The problem with expanding government is that very spending. There are limits to the costs that can be sustained on the expense side of the economy. Not all government is bad. But all government is inefficient and costly. We should have as much of it as we need and no more. I can't tell you how things are in New Zealand but in the U.S. we have way more government than we need. We are also past the point where we have more government than we can afford. We fund government with debt here. If you think that is a good idea then you might want to study up on basic economics.
     
  16. Bored Dead

    Bored Dead New Member

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    Is this impossible to fix? Other sources claim this is because you need about a year of documentation of a worker being lazy to get them fired, and there is no reward for doing so. What if we scrapped that system and hired a supervisor to check on the employees and make strikes against them when they don't work, and have a 3 strikes you're out rule? And also give bonuses to the supervisor when he or she makes a strike.
     
  17. Zosiasmom

    Zosiasmom New Member Past Donor

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    Because each and every time it has expanded its authority it has either a) cost us billions of dollars, b) lost us rights and privileges that we were born with, and c) cost us billions of dollars to remove rights and privileges we were born with.
     
  18. NothingSacred

    NothingSacred Active Member

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    You're wrong about that, if anything, all those places are WAY, WAY, WAY UNDERFUNDED-they seem inefficien to you because they don't have the resources they really need to deliver the services that YOU WANT. Sometimes beauracracy happens because people HAVE TO FOLLOW RULES, rules that PROTECT YOU, the customer. Something might take longer dealing with govt. because govt. has to do what is prescribed by law and private doesn't and often those laws and those delays are beneficial to you. Also, think about social security vs. a private insurance company? Which is lean and which is "bloated", while social security has maybe 1% administrative cost, your insurance company may have 25% or more, paying for advertising and GIANT EXEC SALARIES AND BONUSES, so of the 2, EASILY yuo get WAY MORE bang for your buck from SSA. Yeah, in some ways, private industry is more "efficient" but if that efficiency just benefits the CEOs and the stckholders to your detriment, why is that better for you?
     
  19. NothingSacred

    NothingSacred Active Member

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    So then how do you know that the supervisor isn't just making strikes simply to GET PAID.
     
  20. BestViewedWithCable

    BestViewedWithCable Well-Known Member

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    The government shouldnt get bigger because we can afford the government we already have. Furthermore, this government is the cause of all our economic problems. They colluded with banks to artificially increase home values in an effort to increase government revenue via property taxes. Now that citizens have discovered the lie, our government still insists on spending money it does not have.

    We borrow 40 cents for every dollar the government spends.

    Obama promised hope and change, but he lied. I would have honestly considered helping the government bail itself out of the destruction they caused if Obama would have constructed gallows on the white house lawn, and started hanging those responsible for the world wide economic destruction.

    Obama wont do that cause, his pals are responsible.

    Then they doubled down on spending money we dont have, with the stimulus. That money was prompted handed out to Obamas pals who are responsible for the destruction in the first place.

    Washington is a den of thieves, and Im not gonna take it any more.

    Ronald Reagan was right the whole time.

    Ron, Educate these victims of our government !!!

    [video=youtube;XObcP69dhCg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XObcP69dhCg[/video]




    Sources are available, upon request.
     
  21. NothingSacred

    NothingSacred Active Member

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    OK, 1st, what are the freedoms and liberties lost, GIVE EXAMPLES.

    2nd, Did you know that only 1.7% of Americans derive their support from "welfare"? You act as though half the country does!

    3rd, give us the study or some sort of reference for your descriptions of the 3 types of federal workers? Give us the methodology of the study, who did it, etc.
     
  22. Consmike

    Consmike New Member Past Donor

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    From the constitution.
     
  23. BestViewedWithCable

    BestViewedWithCable Well-Known Member

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    Only half of the citizens actually pay taxes, and Obama wants to let in more illegals.
     
  24. Zosiasmom

    Zosiasmom New Member Past Donor

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    Let's be honest. 45% of the people in the US, let's call them "the middle class" pay the bulk of the taxes. The rich skate out with their 28% capital gains and assload of deductions, the poor get all their money back, while the rest of us have to finance a frickin' house to get any money back at all--if we do get money back.
     
  25. NothingSacred

    NothingSacred Active Member

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    What does that have to do with how many people are on welfare?

    Where on Obama's website does he say he is actively seeking to let in illegals?

    I'd rather have a person making $1 million pay an extra $10,000 in taxes so a person making $20,000 can pay NONE.

    Actaually there are a lot of HARD WORKING ILLEGALS here, I personally know MANY, maybe they should be legalized and made to pay taxes?
     

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