Why do we obey the Taliban submissively when we should be FIGHTING?

Discussion in 'Warfare / Military' started by AARguy, Aug 27, 2021.

  1. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The situation was somewhere between those two extremes. The US military force that was stationed in Afghanistan helping to hold everything together wasn't that large.
    Things at that point were mostly being held together by the Afghan government, but US military forces were providing assistance and support.

    I wouldn't describe a military force of 4000 in a country with a population of 38 million as an "occupation force".

    For historical comparison, let's consider the most extreme example of the smallest military force occupying a large population. At the height of the British Empire in 1861, 66,000 British soldiers were stationed in India with a population of 174,289,000. We can calculate that the ratio of British soldiers to Indians at this time was still almost four times greater than the ratio of American soldiers to the population of Afghanistan. So if this were an "occupation force", it would hold a record for the smallest occupation force relative to population size in history. That's another way of saying it's not large enough to truly constitute an occupation force or make Afghanistan a colony.
     
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  2. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    I would say what makes it an occupation force and a colony is that the elected government collapsed within a week of our leaving. The majority of the country, including it's military and government, saw the future as being with the Taliban. Any country in which you need to be in full battle rattle when leaving the wire is an occupied country. Hard though it is to face, the Aghans prefer the Taliban to whatever government we gave them.
     
  3. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Obviously the Afghanis saw the Taliban as the wave of the future, even if that future meant watching your daughter raped, your son's arm chopped off and your cousin's head removed. It wasn't something they looked forward to... kind of like getting the word you have terminal cancer. Simply resign yourself.
     
  4. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    "East is east and West is west..." We just need to accept they are a different culture with different values.
     
  5. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Lil Mike. First, before I start arguing, I want to say that I respect you as a member. You're mostly no-nonsense and you're not stupid. And you're usually pretty insightful in your views. That being said, I think your mostly just wrong on this issue and you're argument is disingenuous.
    The Biden Administration had already tied the US military force's hands and prevented them from attacking as the Taliban was overrunning Afghan forces. This went on for months and weeks. When the order was finally given for US forces to immediately pull out and evacuate, the Afghan forces had already been overrun. This didn't just happen out of the blue.

    Biden didn't want to do anything to provoke the Taliban, and he thought if he just ignored them, they might still be willing to stick with the previous deal made under Trump. He was trying to keep the possibility of peaceful settlement and negotiation open, even as the Taliban were overrunning large parts of the country and seizing military bases.
    When it finally became obvious the US would have to launch a major offensive and send in more troops if the situation at that point was to be turned around, Biden just decided to pull out of there. The decision was very spontaneous and immediate, which contributed to the discord. They pulled the military troops out first, almost immediately, which created a disaster because then all those civilians were left there. It's almost unbelievable how this was handled.

    Maybe you're just not informed on what actually happened.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  6. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    Well I think the details of our withdrawal have nothing to do with my conclusion, previously stated, that we lost the war. Sure, Biden's crazy decisions made our withdrawal from Afghanistan an unprecedented and humiliating fiasco, but I'm talking about the fact that after 20 years of fighting the Taliban, the map looked like this:


    [​IMG]

    So after 20 years the most powerful military the world has ever seen was still fighting for control of this country.

    So I don't think, as much as we like to pretend, that we were control of the situation. It doesn't look like we were.
     
  7. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Okay, point taken. I concede you have a huge point.
    But the government still controlled all the important cities.

    The map did look a little bit better in 2019.
    https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/19970a5e8f7847e6a9d6093772d3d9a4_6.jpeg
    ‘Peace deal is near’: What we know so far about US-Taliban talks | Taliban News | Al Jazeera

    And in 2017 the Taliban only had a secure foothold on a small number of scattered provinces.
    _119550077_afghanistan_govtaliban_control_map_20172x640-nc.png (1280×1212) (bbci.co.uk)
    Mapping the advance of the Taliban in Afghanistan - BBC News
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  8. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    In a deeply rural and tribal country, controlling the cities doesn't mean all that much. And as you point out, the war was being lost year by year.
     
  9. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Rather than trying to articulate the many reasons why it's a bad idea to send more young Americans to die in some squalid 3rd world hell-hole I can only recommend that you either join "..the most powerful military in the world" or volunteer to work in one of America's V.A. Hospitals where you can see the real cost of war in the form of burned, dismembered, mutilated and / or traumatized young Americans.
     
  10. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What I don't understand, if the US can lose a war in another country, where there is no other strong military power involved, what really makes that different from the possibility of that happening on the US's own home territory? I think if you give this some thought, it is a concerning development. I realize of course Afghanistan is 110,000 km away from the US, but in these global times large distances across the earth don't really matter so much. The military brags they can deploy an operation anywhere across the world with 24 hours notice. What is there really to prevent the same thing from happening in the US? I mean at some point in the distant future?
    I have to conclude that either the US was purposefully really not making much effort to try to control Afghanistan, or there just happens to be something innate in the Afghan population, that made it difficult to bring them into Western-style civilization. If that's the case, it really raises several ultimate questions about immigration policies in the long run. Again, I just do not see a difference. If it can happen in Afghanistan, it could someday happen in the US itself, is the way I see things.
     
  11. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I bet the contractors got very wealthy there, just as in Iraq.
    America has never yet fought a legitimate and just war. They always commit atrocities and tell plenty of lies. If there even was any Goodwill, it was wasted. It is the brave men and women who have to do the fighting and are losing their limbs and lives... just to satisfy a few inflated politicians. Most outstanding example is Mrs. Clinton! --->
    [​IMG]

    She displays the same kind of cruelness that Eisenhower displayed in 1945 to the disarmed German soldiers... an overabundance of power-happiness!

    The link below offers a great article with compassionate concern for the men, women, and children who suffer the horrors of war:
    https://andrewfiala.com/the-just-war-myth-and-the-war-in-afghanistan/
     
  12. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Sir, I am totally aware of the cost of war. I am a West Point graduate, retired LTC who has Commanded troops, served in Iraq and held a young Soldier bleeding to death from an IED attack. I have been the one telling parents and wives about it. Please do not lecture me on the "real cost of war".
     
  13. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Eisenhower treated the Germans very well. I spent about ten years of my military career living in Germany. The Germans appreciated that we saved them from the onslaught of the Russians. I had many personal German friends who told ne how we cared for them in their need with food, fuel and all the rest. More than that Americans offered friendship and help in many other ways. These people included the gamut of German citizens from a major TV station owner to a hotel owner, a restaurant owner and even the graet old gal that ran our Officer's Club. Over time, this close friendship with Germans has been lost as the WWII generation dies out and the Communists of the east have moved in with reunification. But be assured that the US military that beat Hitler made great friends with the German people.
     
  14. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not the ordinary GIs are to be blamed, they have to follow orders, it was Eisenhower and Morgenthau who wanted to eradicate the German people.

    The Canadian author, James Bacque, exposed the American massacre by writing a book about it, called "Other Losses". Take a look...

    https://www.jamesbacque.com/books-films/other-losses

    My youngest brother was one of those several million German POWs. He was lucky, he survived and was sent to France for another 3 years of slave labor.

    Read here about the death camps:
    https://rense.com/general46/germ.htm
     
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  15. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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  16. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Firstly, I'd like to apologize for underestimating your experiences.
    I served in Laos during the Vietnam War and am intimately familiar with what modern ordinance can do to human tissue and therefore get annoyed when I read pro war comments about who "We" need to invade etc.

    Your initial comment was:

    "We have the most powerful military in the world... at least for a little while longer. Why do we not send them to Afghan to save our citizens and our allies? Now!"

    I hope you can see why one would assume that the author of those pro war sentiments sounds like some teenage basement dwelling video game warrior rather than someone with real life experience.

    Because Biden and his team so hopelessly bungled the evacuation, I'm afraid that the hundreds of Americans and our remaining Afghan allies are stuck and their only hope is that some of the private groups operating in Afghanistan can get them out.

    Thanks,
     
  17. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    So, according to your logic, we do not need an Army. We should just let our citizens swing in the wind and, more than likely, die at the hands of the Taliban. Yes, war is horrible. One of the things that deters war is that it is so horrible. But if our military is not about protecting our citizens, what do we have it for? Using your logic about private groups, when civilian lives are threatened by a thug breaking into a house and murdering your family, the 911 Operator should just tell you to get your neighbor to help... the police will not come.
     
  18. Jazz

    Jazz Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe this will enlighten you?:

    "The abuses committed by the forces of the occupation in Germany reached such bestial extremes that various people in the Allied command structure opposed it, or tried to. Charles Lindbergh mentioned how the American soldiers burned the leftovers of their meals to keep them from being scavenged by the starving Germans who hung around the rubbish bins.

    Lindbergh also wrote:

    “In our homeland the public press publishes articles on how we ‘liberated’ the oppressed peoples. Here, our soldiers use the word ‘liberate’ to describe how they get their hands on loot. Everything they grab from a German house, everything they take off a German is ‘liberated’ in the lingo of our troops. Leica cameras are liberated, food, works of art, clothes are liberated. A soldier who rapes a German girl is ‘liberating’ her.

    There are German children who gaze at us as we eat … our cursed regulations forbid us to give them anything to eat. I remember the soldier Barnes, who was arrested for having given a chocolate bar to a tattered little girl. It’s hard to look these children in the face. I feel ashamed. Ashamed of myself and my people as I eat and look at those children. How can we have gotten so inhumane?”

    Colonel Charles Lindbergh was regarded as a national hero of the United States and was proposed as a candidate for the presidency of his country. He served in the USAF and was no Nazi or Nazi sympathiser, but simply recognised the injustices committed by man against his fellow man, supposed enemy or not.
    The abuses committed by the forces of the occupation in Germany reached such bestial extremes that various people in the Allied command structure opposed it, or tried to. Charles Lindbergh mentioned how the American soldiers burned the leftovers of their meals to keep them from being scavenged by the starving Germans who hung around the rubbish bins."

    ....
    as a friend told me, how American soldiers threw their left-over pancakes onto the manure pile and then watched the hungry German boys run for it.
    This friend also told me how at one time he and his friends had nothing to to and went into a movie theater. So also did a Russian soldier and sat right beside him, got out a sausage and a knife and shared his sausage with the boys! True story, because in the beginning the Americans and Russians changed borders of the occupation area.
    Sadly, my friend has already passed on or I would have him tell me some more stories from his experiences of the "liberation". I was lucky in 1945 to have ended up in the British Zone.
     
  19. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Lindbergh was an avowed Nazi... of course he would say such things. And your friend seems to be cut from the same cloth. Its obvious that you are a brainwashed America hater.... you hate this nation deeply. And I live by the tenet "Never try to teach a pig to sing... it only wastes your time and irritates the pig." Your hate is too deep-seated to ever be engaged in rational thought.... have a nice day... and go away.
     
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  20. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Please settle down.
    I believe that any topic can be discussed with civility and without rancor and hope you do too.
    I think that you have misunderstood my sentiments and am not sure exactly what you are proposing as a solution.

    No, I do not feel that it is acceptable to leave innocent American civilians trapped in Afghanistan under the present circumstances.

    After I left the US military, I traveled extensively throughout the Islamic World and elsewhere. I would have expected the appropriate US authorities to intervene if a foreign government were illegitimately holding me against my will.

    Now, just so I understand you correctly, are you suggesting that the US Military launch a full scale invasion of Afghanistan as a first choice for freeing the Americans in Afghanistan?

    Yes, I believe in getting the Americans out of Afghanistan, I just don't think that sacrificing thousands or lives and mutilating even more is the best first choice.

    Finally, I don't think that you understand what I mean by "Private Groups".
    Frequently when Spec Ops personnel retiree or leave their unit they sign up with existing companies or sometimes they form their own company of "contractors".
    You can also be sure that the C.I.A. is active on this because of China's involvement.

    So, my point is that there many ways of getting the Americans and our allies out that do not involve a full scale, US Military invasion.






    "Contractors and Mercenaries will Live on after the US Leaves Iraq and Afghanistan"
    https://politicstoday.org/contracto...-on-after-the-us-leaves-iraq-and-afghanistan/


    EXCERPT "With the Taliban currently ascendant and the U.S.-installed Afghan government facing an existential threat, it is highly doubtful that the United States will entirely cut their losses and withdraw from Afghanistan. China has recently made a number of overtures by formally hosting Taliban officials and this will raise concerns in Washington as they already face off against Beijing in other strategic theaters around the globe.

    It is therefore likely that the U.S. will want to secure the Afghan government by allowing international mercenary companies to continue to operate as “advisers” who will provide training. This may have the effect of allowing the Afghan government to maintain control over Kabul and other major population centers, effectively controlling islets surrounded by a sea of Taliban control in rural Afghanistan. Naturally, Kabul will pay through the nose for the pleasure of hosting mercenaries to ensure their survival" CONTINUED.
     
  21. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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  22. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    -----------------------------------------------------------

    You're sounding less and less like a "West Point graduate" and "retired LTC" with each puerile and bellicose comment.

    I never lied and claimed that that you called for a full scale invasion, I simply asked the question:

    "... are you suggesting that the US Military launch a full scale invasion of Afghanistan as a first choice for freeing the Americans in Afghanistan?"

    A real West Point graduate would know the difference between a question and a statement and not be so quick to call others liars.

    No, I do not think that America should do away with its military, I simply think that "destroying their cities", "devastating their industries" and "killing lots of their population" is a moronic and fatally flawed idea for solving the current situation in Afghanistan today.

    The situation in Afghanistan today is not like Bunker Hill, Guadalcanal or the WTC and may be able to be solved without the additional loss of life.
    That means something to people who have really lost close friends in combat and seen innocent civilians suffer the ravages of war.

    If a diplomatic attempt to get Americans and their allies out of Afghanistan fails then the US has the option of using Spec Ops and / or any number of the well equipped, large PMCs that are intimately familiar with the region and its local Afghan warlords.
    I would expect a retired LTC to know something about the capabilities and current use of today's PMCs that employ hundreds of thousands throughout Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. G4S, for example has over 600,000 employees, operates in over 125 countries around the world and has Afghan warlords on its payroll.

    So, to be perfectly clear, I never even hinted at the elimination of America's military nor did I claim that you supported a "full scale invasion". I am simply supportive of any solution that sacrifices the fewest lives, not "destroying their cities" and "killing lots of their population" etc.
     
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  23. kazenatsu

    kazenatsu Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I think the question is more what the US should have done, should it have allowed the country to fall to the Taliban.
    That's kind of a different question from asking if a full scale invasion should be launched.

    In addition to that, if an invasion should be (or should have been) launched after the fall of the Afghan government, then the sooner it was launched, the much easier it would be. The more time the Taliban is given, the more time they will be able to organize their new government and become stronger.
    I predict if an invasion does not take place within a year (which it likely won't), the US will have foregone 90% of the advantage it could have gained if it launched at an invasion immediately after the fall of the Afghan government. Probably after 3 years, it would be like trying to invade Afghanistan all over again, like in 2001.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2021
  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I agree with you about the most important question.

    It's important to evaluate how the evacuation failed in order to know how to fix the problem of Americans being stuck in Afghanistan.
    Among the lessons we've learned is that Obama was right when he said: "Never underestimate Joe's ability to f**k things up."

    I hope that our current abandoned American problem may be able to be solved simply through diplomatic channels as Afghanistan cannot survive without foreign aid.

    While I never made it to Afghanistan, I did spend 10 - 11 months walking and hitch - hiking throughout the Islamic world where I learned a little bit about their culture, values and disappointment over America' counter productive, "Israel First" Foreign Policy.
    Perhaps because I was treated with warm hospitality and surprising generosity, I do not immediately assume that there must be bloodshed in freeing the abandoned Americans.

    You mentioned the timing of some sort of military action but I think that there should be some sort of early exit strategy built into any form of military action which, I think, should be a last choice.

    Thanks,
     
  25. AARguy

    AARguy Well-Known Member

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    Can you communicate without the puny personal attacks? Try again without the ad hominem attacks and I;ll respond. Until then... have a nice day.
     

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