Why the threat of Hell fails to motivate good behavior.

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by robini123, Nov 16, 2022.

  1. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    So you agree with me? Why are you arguing then?
    It doesn't seem like you ever had a point so I don't think it ever started.
     
  2. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I do believe that near death experiencer Christian Andreason deals with this topic brilliantly............

    https://near-death.com/christian-andreason-nde/



    http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spirituality/index.html
     
  3. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Very True true Religion can be used to control people. In addition however, propaganda can also be used to control people - the State Sponsored propaganda during the "Pandemic" a good example .. sucked you in hook line and sinke .. just like Religion :)
     
  4. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    yeah, Trump was wrong to issue his shutdown and reopen guidelines, hindsight is 20\20
     
  5. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Perhaps .. hindsight is 20/20 ... Was Biden who went into Collectivist Nazi mode though .. using State Sponsored propaganda just like Adolf.. and the Blue Crew who gulped down the koolaid .. turned into brainless moron zombies .. just like folks who are drunk on some religious cult.
     
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  6. Dirty Rotten Imbecile

    Dirty Rotten Imbecile Well-Known Member

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    I am rolling my eyes at the Hitler reference.

    Biden is not like Hitler. Neither is Trump.

    Jeez
     
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  7. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the right wants to force rape victims to have their rapists babies.... which is more like Hitler
     
  8. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    It took two and a half pages of really interesting discussion before it all collapsed at the mention of the T word.
    And the inevitable political dong done starts again.

    IMO JCS is closest to the truth. The development of a faith has to be put into temporal context and there is so much in the birth and death of Jesus that is a close echo to ancient faiths and then contemporary Roman Theology including the idea that a god mated with a human. That is all over Roman belief.
    And we will never know how much of the Bible was a reflective construction fashioned to make the story acceptable to those who were already familiar with the concepts of blood sacrifice and supernatural mating.

    IMO the idea of hell is meant to be a warning...like parents warn children of dire consequences if they don't behave. No one knows if hell (traditionally described) exists. But if someone is introduced to the concept at an early age, it can be a kind of moral stoplight, to give you time to reflect.

    I personally don't think an afterlife exists for the dead person. I think it exists in the minds of the living. Death is a permanent non existence. You become an object. And I also think that for the living and aware, that is hard to accept. I also think that heaven and hell is what we are in life. Either we choose to add to or subtract from the common experience.

    Why is he'll not a deterrent? Because for many, it doesn't exist. They aren't afraid of it.

    Finally I personally would very much dislike a true universal human condition that causes me to go round and round existence to be eventually tossed onto the ticked pule or the crossed pile based on what faith I belonged to or what someone argued what the meaning of that faith is. If you reduce them all down to a single idea, it is that we are meant to contribute to our progress as a living collective ( and that includes all organic things). I think we are all born with that as our first principle, our tabula rasa. Corruption later comes from interaction with life.


    .
     
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  9. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    "inally I personally would very much dislike a true universal human condition that causes me to go round and round existence to be eventually tossed onto the ticked pule or the crossed pile based on what faith I belonged to or what someone argued what the meaning of that faith is. "

    so agree, better to have no God, then a jealous God that would do that to good people

    the other issue is people thinking that if people do not believe the way they do, God is gonna punish everyone, then they do bad things to those people in hopes of pleasing their God so he wont punish them
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2022
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  10. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What a joke .. desperate to deflect from Nazi Blue .. by looking towards Stalin crying ... but but but .. Stalin was worse.

    The fact that Red may or may not be equivalent to the Blue Tyranny does not change the fact that Blue is a freaken Nazi collectivist Tyrrany mate .. get it .. got it .. goooooood :)
     
  11. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so your not happy that I compare it to something the right is doing that is worse?
     
  12. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    What a dramatic projection to all of Christendom. It says more about you than reality.

    I was actually religious at one time and going to hell because of bad behavior was important to avoid, especially for someone who didn’t have a solid sense of ethics (I was a child). Hell and a loving god illogic sent me on the road to atheism in grade school.

    Most everyone, even the damaged ones, want to be good. Those that believe in hell use it as reminder that death is inevitable and rewards are on the other side. A motivational force among the pious. Morality is subjective and those acting within the standards of their moral guidelines are not corrupt, as you put it, they are acting in good faith. The guidelines however can be questionable.

    We all have ethical guidelines. Some let their standards be guided by a religion, others by social mores, others an internal philosophy or a combination of all three. All standards lived by can do possible harm. I, for instance, believe in a woman’s right to choose an abortion and that definitely harms a fetus. Am I corrupt?
     
  13. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Thinking you are not interpreting is not evidence that you are not. The fact that your take on what a religious text says will not be universally agreed upon by all practitioners reveals the subjectivity of how the text is interpreted. For example my old man says I am not going to hell even though based upon my subjective interpretation of the Bible I surely will. For my Christian dad who sees me in the best light possible to think I will go to hell for rejecting his god would be to make his god evil in his eyes. He sees me as good and the thought of his god sending me to hell would cause great cognitive dissonance within him. He reconciles this dissonance by interpreting the Bible in a way that allows him to maintain his faith while believing that I will go to heaven even with my rejection of his god.

    We make god in our own image, or in other words we interpret theology in personally convenient ways. 74 million people that are overwhelmingly Christian voted for Trump, a man that is by my subjective interpretation of the Bible the antithesis of the teachings of Christ. Yet when I talk to Christian conservatives that voted for Trump they have no shortage of rationalizations as to why it was not immoral or hypocritical to vote for him. Same can be said of President Clinton’s Christian supporters in the 1990’s or Christians that supported his wife in her most recent political run for office.

    We love to practice morals and ethics when it is convenient. When it is not we move the goalpost and then deny doing so. We love to hold others accountable but suck at holding ourselves and our most cherished groups to the same standard. We are all sinners that tend to be blind to our sin.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
  14. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    Claiming that I am is not evidence that I am. You don't seem to have any of that.
    Sounds like another claim that can be dismissed without evidence.
    Seems like you are interrupting it.
    so because Christians vote at all you think that's violating the Bible or some sort of interpretation?
    That's not an interpretation.
     
  15. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    While we do all have ethical guidelines we don’t all share the same guidelines and we tend to apply them in convenient ways. Even those that agree upon right and wrong tend to be biased in the judgment of such. Sociology has taught me that along with decades of observing competing tribes such as liberals and conservatives.
     
  16. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    I clearly stated that I interpret and I also gave you evidence of how religion is subjectively interpreted that you have rejected. I appreciate your taking the time to give me your perspective but if you are going to ignore my evidence I see no reason to continue our conversation.
     
  17. Polydectes

    Polydectes Well-Known Member

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    You didn't provide any evidence you insisted and gave a lot of anecdote.
     
  18. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Au contraire ma soeur, many, if not most of the religious believe in an actual hell along with an actual heaven. Their reward or their punishment for a life lived. It is simple, unnuanced reward or punishment everyone can understand without much need to overthink, which afflicts some here.
     
  19. Pixie

    Pixie Well-Known Member

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    In your world maybe.
    In other worlds the idea of regeneration is predominant.
    Overthinking is defined by a capacity to understand.
     
  20. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Well my world is the US of A and it is peculiar among “advanced” nations in being very religious. My feeling is most of the religious don’t overthink their faith or they would be walking away from solid ground which would be destabilizing.
     
  21. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Three sentences about we are all different but nothing about my point? The preponderance of humanity is not corrupt. They attempt to live in good faith by their standards and expecting perfection is foolish. Muslims and Christians believe in heaven and hell and for many the belief in reward or punishment helps guide their actions.
     
  22. robini123

    robini123 Well-Known Member

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    Abrahamic texts claim that we are all sinners, to which I agree. Claiming that a preponderance of humanity is not corrupt is in conflict with the Abrahamic texts. Perhaps of no consequence for the atheistic or agnostic. To make a secular argument of our corruption I would offer books written by sociologist that expose our subconscious biases such as in group out group biases and confirmation bias as evidence of our systemic corruption. To simply believe one’s own corruption is minimal is a convenient egocentrically pleasing conclusion. It is our nature to overestimate the good of self and our most trusted groups while minimizing the negatives.

    As for religious beliefs of heaven and hell, reward and punishment helping guide a theists actions… simply believing it leads to good is not evidence that it has in any individual case… although at this point it needs to be declared that good is a subjective term. A fear of hell can inspire some to greats acts of good while inspiring other to great acts of evil by my subjective standards. Evil perceives itself as good and the victim of abuse of another which is then used to inflict like evils upon a perceived agitator. We like to perceive evil as being self aware of its own evil. In reality evil tends to perceive itself as good and most of us perceive ourselves as good. I am not saying we are all evil monsters, but I am saying that we suck at seeing the evil within.

    Lastly I agree we are not perfect… yet this is frequently used as a deflection when our sin is pointed out which does nothing to defeat the sin or mitigate the chance of reoccurrence.
     
  23. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Man makes his own Hell in this world.
     
  24. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    All the doctrine of hell ever did for me was traumatize me and drive me away from the religion.
     
  25. edna kawabata

    edna kawabata Well-Known Member

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    Yes we all make mistakes, have regrets, but to claim humanity is “corrupt” is hyperbole. Science doesn’t back you up. We are creatures who categorize, it is a defense mechanism. So we form biases. Some accurate, some not so much, that form our opinions and help with decisions. That’s why I won’t try to pet the next lion I see or walk into traffic. I don’t need to believe “my corruption is minimal” all I need to do is look at the people around me and I judge their “corruption” as nil. Maybe your negative view of mankind is subject to terminal confirmation bias.

    Maybe you are using a unique definition of corruption I don’t understand. It isn’t dishonest or fraudulent conduct? It is corruption of the soul. The realm of the imagination not seen in real world evidence except by those with that bias.
     

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