Why the world should adopt a basic income

Discussion in 'Economics & Trade' started by LafayetteBis, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes, we can!

    I don't know what you mean by the "Ottawa Swamp". The percentage of GDP in Canada that goes to Heath Care is lower than that of the US because you have a better healthcare system funded by the Canadian Government*. Any healthcare system that is privatized is far too expensive and the US is living proof of that fact!

    Have a look at the OECD comparative healthcare cost study here (Expenditure in dollars per country-population):
    Canada - $4826
    USA - $10029

    The US is twice that of Canada on a per capita (per person) basis! If you want a real "healthcare swamp" with professional alligators, come south !!!!

    *That does not spend half its Discretionary Budget on Defense as does the US! Where you are getting Screwed Royally in Canada is in post-secondary education costs! From here:
    - excerpt:
    Were your kids in school in France, they'd be paying no more than $1000 per child (plus Room&Board) as mine did. (As I never tire of saying - since the war in Vietnam - "Guns or butter because you can't have both!?!")
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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  2. LafayetteBis

    LafayetteBis Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    About Canada (from here):
     
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  3. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you immensely for this encouraging information.......
    it is nice to read specific numbers on some areas in which we do seem to be doing much better than the USA.......

    Frankly..... there is considerable evidence that the problems in Canadian central banking policy did in fact result from pressure from the USA.......

    Some powerful people wanted to mess up the rather brilliant central banking policy that we were using from 1940 - 1974 because they would not have been able to make the USA national debt spiral out of control due to the extremely simple factor of compound interest over time if........ several hundred miles to the north a brilliant central banking policy had been continued.

    https://www.michaeljournal.org/arti...ce-our-country-debt-free-say-three-economists

    I got into this in my 2006 and 2008 campaigns, (posts #1 and #3)

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...016-and-2004-campaign-writings-as-art.534297/
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
  4. AlphaMale

    AlphaMale Member

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    This would never work you can not just give people free money they did not earn and except good things to happen. People would just stop working causing unemployment, prices in stores would go up so would rents.Besides that how would you even pay for something that massive?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  5. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is theoretically possible.........
    and the actual numbers don't have to be huge.....
    but for starters we would have to take a closer look at the history of flaws in central banking policies.


    https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/politics/item/abraham-lincoln-and-john-f-kennedy
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Ottawa Swamp is a phrase that is relative in comparison to what is theoretically possible......
    Former Canadian Minister of Defense Paul Hellyer explains what most M. P's are lacking the courage to educate voters about.....

     
  7. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The number one most astonishingly simple way to potentially finance a basic minimum income........ would be the calculation of the DIFFERENCE between the interest owing on all federal government DEBT, State and provincial debt, all corporate and private debt......... Then compare that number with the amount of interest earned on all savings accounts, stocks and bonds.............. and create the difference so that a stable amount of money can stay in the economy.

    That difference could theoretically be used to finance government programs that people could agree on...... and most citizens would agree that a basic minimum income is a pretty good idea..... Infrastructure spending is generally accepted as well..........

    The number one reason for the national debts of the USA and Canada to spiral out of control since 1974 is not really the DEFICIT... it is actually far more so the fault of the simple mathematical problem of COMPOUND INTEREST OVER TIME!


    https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/social-credit/item/the-public-debt-problem
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  8. bringiton

    bringiton Well-Known Member

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    I agree giving people money for doing and contributing nothing is never a good idea. Especially when they are already super-duper uber-rich.
    If they stopped looking for work, they would technically not be counted as unemployed.
    Rents would probably go up. All desirable public services and infrastructure increase land rents.
    Depends how much it is per person.
     
  9. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Interesting @LafayetteBis
    I follow your lead to the "Economics" forum,
    with intent to post a question if people's beliefs
    bias and project onto our approaches to economics,
    and your VERY FIRST POST I FIND
    shows this very phenomenon I was referring to.

    YOUR belief about social justice projects and biases
    your BELIEF that nations should adopt a basic standard income!

    This is demonstrated proof of the exact DYNAMIC
    I am referring to.

    @LafayetteBis I would compare it as EQUIVALENT in dynamic
    to people who believe that officials in government need to respect
    God and Christian standards in order to have healthy just government
    that doesn't abuse or impose harm by conflicting corrupted policies.

    If you can understand THAT bias, can you understand how your
    beliefs that "minimum standard income" is NECESSARY for social Justice.

    You are basically saying we can't achieve social justice
    WITHOUT relying on GOVT to establish a standard.

    It isn't good enough for you to rely on the relationships
    within communities to provide for their community members
    based on voluntary participation and outreach. You want to
    MANDATE it through "govt" to "guarantee" such access and protections.

    However, people WITHOUT this relationship or faith in govt you have
    do not want govt regulations entangling and controlling policy regarding
    how communities CHOOSE to assist those in need. What if these needy
    people require spiritual healing, therapy and counseling in order to become stable?
    Govt CANNOT be in the business of regulating that.

    But programs have helped people become stable by integrating
    faith based counseling support, assistance and therapy so that
    people in need get this help. If govt just handouts money without
    requiring correction to abusive situations causing the poverty and oppression,
    there is not the same incentive to get help to resolve the social causes of injustice.

    So that's TWO reasons, or THREE, why this "social justice" approach
    is rejected from being MANDATED through GOVT:
    (1) Not everyone shares the same beliefs that you do. It is both unconstitutional to impose this bias in belief that the "ONLY WAY" to ensure social justice and equal protections is to implement
    social programs "THROUGH GOVT." That is YOUR belief and YOUR faith based bias that
    Govt cannot require other people to follow and fund.
    In fact, going through Govt this way VIOLATES Constitutional beliefs in limited govt that many people have
    who have equal rights to their beliefs as you have to yours. (This is a Second Point in #2)
    Thus, trying to impose YOUR beliefs "through govt for everyone to follow and fund" is as UNCONSTITUTIONAL as imposing Christianity or Spiritual Healing through Govt to "help everyone."

    (2) Imposing social programs through govt violate equal beliefs of citizens
    in limited govt under Constitutionalism.

    Other people besides yourself have EQUAL BELIEFS that equal
    social justice is best arrived at by personal empowerment without
    coercion by govt requiring it by law. So where implementing such
    social programs that are biased AGAINST people's beliefs in
    limited govt and maintaining control of resources and programs directly by the people,
    this becomes UNCONSTITUTIONAL to force taxpayers to fund such
    "govt programs" against their beliefs. Such citizens have equal rights to
    fund their own beliefs and programs without being "forced to go through govt."
    You cannot REQUIRE charity because the terms that people believe in
    inherently involve personal BELIEFS and VALUES that govt cannot regulate
    for people, but each person or group has EQUAL RIGHT to choose for themselves.

    (3) Some programs or methods necessary to help people require spiritual
    or religious counseling and assistance. So govt cannot regulate those either.
    This is similar to why universal health care requires freedom of choice of individuals
    and groups, because helping everyone with their health also involves issues of
    spiritual and religious differences in beliefs. So govt cannot simply mandate
    policies on this.

    Perhaps what we CAN do is allow 100% tax deductions for individuals or groups
    paying to support the "universal health care" or "basic standard income."

    @LafayetteBis although it would be unconstitutional to mandate and control
    such programs through govt, there is nothing wrong with giving people the
    CHOICE to fund and run their OWN social justice programs of standard income,
    free education and job training, and/or universal health care etc.
    and just deduct 100% off taxes (similar to a church or business expense)
    instead of trying to run these social programs through govt.

    This would PREVENT any person or group from imposing their biases
    or beliefs on public policy for everyone, but would still allow "equal free
    choice" to fund programs using your OWN money and then deduct from taxes.
     
  10. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    It may be possible technically, but it's utterly IMpossible in the human sense. The poster is correct. Humans (and animals, and plants) will do as little as possible to stay alive. It's a survival mechanism.
     
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  11. jdog

    jdog Banned

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    Basic income is one of those liberal ideas that only sounds good to a ignorant person. At first the idea of something for nothing sounds great but, in fact it is a idea that would cause great harm.
    To begin with it cannot be implemented without a system of governmental aggression in which wealth is taken by force from some of the people in order to redistribute it to others. This is in itself immoral. Any system built on immoral principals is doomed to failure.
    Second it is in opposition to rewarding work and productive behavior. It subsidies the worst human attributes while penalizing the productive which will ultimately undermine the human species. Lastly it promotes socialism and tyranny over liberty and self determination, which is in contrast to basic human rights.
     
  12. crank

    crank Well-Known Member

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    This is why it would never work, and why it should NEVER be tried.
     
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  13. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for your chutzpah.... but I am making it a part of my political platform for my nomination campaign to represent the PPC up here in Canada.

    I posted the following to my Facebook wall a few hours ago:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/andrew-scheer-i-am-willing-to-take-on-either-m-p-sean-fraser-or-m-p-bill-casey.539570/page-3&fbclid=IwAR13VCYSj4hY2EUPwDSV0tTQSdejheoQ_4ZrHQqHONijsG-FrEwTUw9O3d4#post-1070584280

    Dennis Tate, May 20, 2019, Central - Nova, N.S.

    Mr. Peter MacKay: I noticed how when you were Canada's Minister of Defence you visited and visited and visited our troops no matter where they were stationed. You risked your life many times to carry out your duties as Minister of Defence and Sir............. I would love it....... if you would join the PPC and challenge me for the nomination for the PPC here in Central - Nova?

    Dennis Tate

    To all candidates in the People's Party of Canada. I am still in the nomination process and I may end up representing the PPC here in Central- Nova, N. S. I posted the following to the group "Yellow Vests Canada" on the weekend and there are 166 shares already. Are there any errors in this message that you can see?

    Should I have written 1939 rather than 1940?

    Am I an idiot to be thinking that one possible concept that this lays the foundation for is that of a "Basic Minimum Income" for all thirty seven million Canadians? If so should I specify all Canadians of legal age?" (If you will click on the word "post" in the opening line of this message you should go back to the original message on that public group).

    "From 1940 to 1974 the Government of Canada put roughly half of the total money supply into the economy through loans issued through the federally owned Bank of Canada. Provincial and municipal governments could borrow the money to build roads, schools, hospitals and sewage treatment facilities at zero or one percent interest. In 1974 we changed our system and since that time a higher and higher percentage of all government debt is financed through loans issued through privately owned banks. At this time it is ninety eight percent. This policy may be great for our banking sector but it was estimated that in the one year of 1995 alone our federal government could have saved roughly SIXTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in interest payments if we had gone back to creating half the total money supply through these low interest rate loans issued through the bank that is OWNED BY ALL CANADIANS.

    Considering that our deficit was approximately thirty billion dollars for that year, simply by changing back to an already proven monetary and banking system, we could theoretically have had a FEDERAL BUDGET SURPLUS OF THIRTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in 1995.

    The massive cutbacks in the Canadian military, in health care, highway construction, social programs and education were profoundly affected by these accounting practices?"

    The following link should also take you to the original message:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/565213087274651/permalink/673739823088643/
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I would be honored indeed to get your comments and criticism on this variation of the plan that is uniquely tailored for my nation Canada....... and our rather unusual set of circumstances at this time in history.




    The Tate Plan for a Basic Minimum Income for all Canadians.



     
  15. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

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    Free Molson and weed would be better.
     
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  16. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Although that is theoretically possible as well........
    I prefer to give all thirty seven million Canadians free money.......
    and let them buy weed and Molson's if that is what they want to do with the free money?!

    Those who choose to get involved in investing.......
    can get involved in investing..........

    One of the major reasons as to why Canada's Savings Bonds were promoted during WWII was to decrease inflation...............
    because Canadian politicians had noticed that during the Lincoln era......
    there was relatively high inflation.... which is logical when you take your most productive workers off the far.... out of the forests or off the fishing boats.... or out of the fledgling factories....... and pay them to shoot rifles, cannons or muzzle loaders at each other?!

    A decrease in productivity.... combined with an increase in the supply of money...... is inflationary........

    On the other hand... if the supply of goods and services increases along with an increase in money...... you may not experience significant inflation?????
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  17. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that's really generous of you. How much money do you have in your bank account? You're gonna need a lotta loonies to share the wealth with every sap-tappin' Canuck in the great white North.
     
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  18. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If you manage to wade through five posts in this discussion on the Creative Corner forum, you will begin to catch on to the larger long term plan at work here:

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ada-and-unified-field-theory-of-m-w-p.548225/
     
  19. Creasy Tvedt

    Creasy Tvedt Well-Known Member

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    Ooooh, you want to be generous with other people's money. I see.

    That's a whole different kind of generosity. That's a stupid kind of "leftist generous" that uses taxpayer money to buy weed and Molson for lazy bums.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  20. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Actually........ the Bank of Canada is owned by all
    thirty seven million Canadians so........
    if all of them got an extra five hundred dollars / per month.......
    that is relatively FAIR or at least more fair...... in many ways.....
    than just about any type of proposal.

    Yes ......
    in a certain percentage of cases.......
    people who are already doing drugs or alcohol will
    just use it to mess up their live even further.......
    but there are ways around that.........

    ... This is why so many Americans get "Food Stamps" rather than a monthly check deposited into their accounts!

    https://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/supplemental-nutrition-assistance-program

    Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  21. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    My niece is a nurse.... who has worked in the USA
    since she got her qualifications.... and she says that the USA
    medical system is far, far, far, far, far better than the Canadian......

    in spite of the fact that yes..... technically.... Canadians do get free treatment for
    most conditions.

    The problem is.... the waiting lines are long even in emergency rooms......

    The waiting list to see a specialist or even a GP is long.......

    The equipment is relatively obsolete........
     

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