Why you can't have an honest or civil conversation with most racists

Discussion in 'Race Relations' started by Egalitarianjay02, Mar 8, 2016.

  1. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    Did you even watch the debate? Suzuki used his expertise as a geneticist to debunk Rushton. He pointed out numerous fallacies in his arguments including the selectivity of Rushton's data, absurdities in his evolutionary reasoning and noted his inability to control for variables while laughing with the audience at some of Rushton's pathetic research methodologies. Overall the debate was a thrashing for Rushton who should have been embarrassed by his presentation.

    You don't understand quantitative genetics and I'm getting tired of repeating myself. Once again you can not make a legitimate comparison between two phenotypes exhibited by different genotypes unless those genotypes have been reared in the same environment. In the absence of evidence for a genetic component to racial differences in IQ the default position that environment is 100% the cause of the difference becomes validated. I don't know any credible scientist who has investigated this subject who denies that institutional racist discrimination has some impact on the IQ scores of Black Americans. Even strong hereditarians like Rushton and Jensen accept at least a 20% environmental impact. The environment-only position is based on population genetic theory and a mountain of psychometric evidence.

    Jewish Americans at the very least have not faced the same level or type of discrimination as Black Americans and have essentially assimilated in to Whiteness like all other European ethnic groups.
     
  2. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    I haven't watched it in a good while.



    Nothing you're arguing about genetics proves that "discrimination caused low black IQ." "Environment as cause means discrimination did it" is a leap on your part and a leap on the part of ideological zealots like you with a drum to beat. You have zero evidence to show this is the case. I don't even see any kind of process undertaken to rule out other causes and contributors. That has been completely skipped over in favor of invoking discrimination as a catch-all explanation.

    You have provided zero evidence that alleged "institutional racism" affects black IQ scores. As such, I'd like to see why discrimination doesn't affect Jewish IQ scores, unless you're claiming blacks are special victims above all others. You've certainly done nothing to explain why blacks in white-majority countries actually have markedly average HIGHER IQs in most studies compared to blacks in black-majority countries that lacked slavery and have a black government.

    How about the low average IQs in Mexico? Do the Mexicans suffer from discrimination against themselves? Same with Filipinos or Arabs for that matter.

    "Environmental impact" is not proof of discrimination causes low black average IQ. I just explained that, and you ignored it to continue the correlation-equals-causation argument.

    Worse than this, what is often called "institutional racism" is nothing more than an ASSUMPTION to explain gaps between groups in terms of achievement, crime rates, etc. Yet another correlation/causation argument.

    LMAO... Many of the Jewish arrivals here from Europe in the 19th and 20th centuries were directly impacted by Hitler, Tsarist pogroms, etc. Jews have had their asses kicked for hundreds of years in Europe. You leave out their history and invoke slavery. Cute.

    If it was "discrimination," then blacks in black-majority countries should have higher average IQs than American blacks, not the other way around.

    What you're trying to do here is fill in gaps in science with political/social arguments and historical grievance narratives.

    Again, I'm not surprised.

    Please lead us to the studies that show that colored toilets cause low IQ.
     
  3. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    You already made that stupid argument before. Your argument is incredibly racist because it ignored the very real and undeniable racist discrimination against Blacks including slavery, making it illegal for slaves to learn how to read so they would be uneducated, denying equal education, denying equal employment, denying equal housing, denying the right to vote etc. etc.

    But yeah sure Empress, go ahead and pretend racist discrimination against Blacks was limited to segregating the use of bathrooms.

    This is real science on the matter:

     
  4. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    Crying racism because I asked you to prove your claims is hilarious.

    You can put all this to bed if you'd simply prove your claims rather than stretch one assertion and try to shoe-horn it into validating another one.

    The only racism here is YOU in that you're trying to promote the lie that "discrimination causes low black IQ" when there isn't a single shred of science on this planet to show that.


    Where is the real science? You are using racial grievance narratives to fill the gaps in science. Where is your data? None of the science you have presented ALL this time shows what you claim. Not one iota of it.

    So how's that Nisbett thing coming along? It must be tough making progress when you keep coming back here crying racism and stuff.
     
  5. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    Are you still denying that you are racist? Environment impacts IQ and there is environmental inequality between groups. Those are facts.
     
  6. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    Sad. You're reduced to

    1) Calling names.
    2) Correlation equals causation fallacy.
    3) Circular argument.
    4) Fallacy of proof by assertion.

    Sad to say you've wasted THIS much time online ranting on claiming science "proves" what you claim.

    And yes, when you claim that a race of people is responsible for the low IQs of your own people and you can't prove it... You're racist as (*)(*)(*)(*).
     
  7. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    I've already proven that environment impacts IQ and there is environmental inequality between groups AND there is no genetic component to differences between groups. I've proven my case. You are simply in denial.

    And you are a racist. Your post history is full of racist comments and racist arguments.
     
  8. Empress

    Empress Well-Known Member

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    If there is no genetic component to differences between groups, then you need to explain why transplantation between groups can be problematic, why transplantation from a non-mixed person to a mixed person isn't always compatible and mixed people actually DIE from a lack of a match, and why some medications work better on black people than white people.

    There are clearly differences on some level. No wonder you're so confused by Lewontin's plants. How do creatures produced by meiosis equal those reproduced by mitosis?

    Aside from that, if you want to whine about politics, then take your complaints to the politics section rather than trying to wrap it in a bull(*)(*)(*)(*) veneer of science.

    And stop using personal grudges against an individual allegedly having "racist posts" as compensation to justify your scapegoating an entire race of people for the low average IQ of your own. That is some racist (*)(*)(*)(*).

    I already corrected Graves' bull(*)(*)(*)(*) regarding the "50% heritability" crap. Why do you keep posting it when you can't defend it?

    I have never scapegoated black people for anything. You are scapegoating us for EVERYTHING.
     
  9. rayznack

    rayznack Well-Known Member

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    Stereotype threat does not narrow the 15 PT black-white IQ gap, and it was not replicable. Environmental toxicity is worse for higher IQ Hong Kong residents, Taiwanese and Koreans than for whites and blacks. Graves is throwing out variables hoping some will stick. Graves is not interested in exploring the gap but merely covering up the causes.

    The term proof you throw around would consist of data showing the impact of these environmental variables on IQ and the degree blacks are afflicted by then compared to whites.

    You would also have to explain confounding variables and countervailing evidence.

    Get back to us when you have this data and comprehensive and coherent explations.
     
  10. egotripp

    egotripp Banned

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    Obviously, you grew up in an extremely poor environment, so I won't hold your racism against you, nor your lack of intellectual honesty.
     
  11. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    So is Anyone who acknowledges that there are Physical or Mental differences/abilities (aka/PC 'Relative Advantages') between Racial groups a Racist?
    This is an even more untenable position in the age of Genetics, than it already and Obviously was.
    `
     
  12. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    Great post except for the contradiction of saying the problems facing Blacks are environmental.. but then [Correctly] proceeded to show Why they fell behind evolution/adaptation-wise: cognitively/behavior/IQ. "12,000 years" etc.

    Quite enlightened, and can be found in the now famous and wonderful reference in all respects you describe.
    https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=10,000+year+explosion
    In fact, sounds like you read it.

    Meanwhile/Ergo, the OP/Egalitarian Jay and others, are rightly put in the position of denying logical and incontrovertible evidence of evolution.
    `
     
  13. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    agree, this applies to both black racists and white racists
     
  14. rickysdisciple

    rickysdisciple New Member

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    Thank you.

    I think problems like the excessive amounts of crime are probably more environmental than genetic, given what we know about black crime rates in previous generations. The IQ gap is almost certainly, partially, caused by genetic differences. Luckily, the Chinese are expecting to make great strides in genetic testing within the next few years, so hopefully we will have incontrovertible proof soon enough. They'll need to sequence quite a few genomes before they can really perform a useful analysis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thank you.

    I think problems like the excessive amounts of crime are probably more environmental than genetic, given what we know about black crime rates in previous generations. The IQ gap is almost certainly, partially, caused by genetic differences. Luckily, the Chinese are expecting to make great strides in genetic testing within the next few years, so hopefully we will have incontrovertible proof soon enough. They'll need to sequence quite a few genomes before they can really perform a useful analysis.
     
  15. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    I think crime is certainly partly environmental: such things as 70% Out of Wedlock birth rate. (that may be part genetic as well)
    But young Blacks have higher Testosterone/T-receptors than young whites. Also a reason for their athletic prowess.

    https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com...-and-testosterone-evolution-and-perspectives/

    See also the less controversial studies:

    Serum testosterone levels in healthy young black and white men.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741

    Racial/ethnic variations in male testosterone levels: a probable contributor to group differences in health.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1621259

    Testosterone, crime, and misbehavior among 692 male prison inmates
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/019188699400177T

    So you have a kind of natural Roid Rage/High-T.
    Lower IQ and Higher Testosterone - Dangerous combo!
    And explains our prison/arrest demographics: Blacks under 30.
    `
     
  16. rickysdisciple

    rickysdisciple New Member

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    I'm not going to outright deny the relationship, but none of the studies you cited demonstrate a relationship between race and T-levels. The first study is flawed because of a huge sampling error--blacks in college are overwhlemingly more likely to be athletes than whites, which means that we aren't comparing apples to apples. I can't find the second study, and the third study says nothing about race. Do you have any more studies that show this connection?
     
  17. Taxonomy26

    Taxonomy26 Banned

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    The first study notes the Correlated Prostate Cancer rate is DOUBLE in ALL Black Males, without regard to college.
    The testing of those in college isn't perfect sampling, but Confirmatory.

    The second study abstract says
    Based on geometric means, significant average differences were found between 3,654 non-Hispanic white and 525 black individuals. The geometric mean for Testosterone levels among 200 Hispanic individuals was similar to that of non-Hispanic white individuals...Results were interpreted as having considerable potential for Explaining some of the Race Differences in the incidences of Cardiovascular diseases, Hypertension, and Prostate cancer.

    Blacks having Higher Prostate cancer, Cardiovascular disease, and Hypertension rates, that is.
    You Whiffed.
     
  18. rickysdisciple

    rickysdisciple New Member

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    I didn't whiff lol. I am not willing to use such indirect evidence to make the case that blacks have higher testosterone levels. Simply looking at the varying rates of prostate cancer and tying it to differences in testosterone is lazy, in my opinion. The study on college students is virtually worthless, given how self-selected that population is, and the third study, as far as I can see, provides no numerical data--it simply states that differences were found.

    I prefer to avoid this kind of argumentation because it wastes time and gives scrupulous opponents easy victories.

    That being said, if you have better studies than the ones you provided, I would love to look at them. I'm not denying that there are differences, only that I am not willing to argue this point, given the lack of solid evidence.
     
  19. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    Having spent time on this forum, I'm beginning to believe the word 'racist' has been redefined as shown below.


    Racist - Someone who disagrees with the any one of the views held by a Liberal.
    synonyms: Conservative, Republican, Caucasian, Christian, Southerner

    Should the intent of a conversation be to discover some means of accusing someone of being a racist?
     
  20. TWinTX

    TWinTX New Member

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    After reading through all of the posts I have a question for the group. When an individual feels negatively about another race are they reacting to their skin color or are they reacting to their perception of the culture they associate with that race. If it is the latter should not our discussion be about culture instead of race.
     
  21. Egalitarianjay02

    Egalitarianjay02 Banned

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    Racists tend to believe that race determines culture so you can't separate racial discussion from cultural discussion. Racists also don't stop at discrimination based on the culture of a supposed race but make an issue out of the physical characteristics we associate with race themselves. They make arguments about beauty and claim some races are more attractive than others as well as make fun of certain physical characteristics. So discussing racism is more complex than simply talking about culture and mental characteristics.
     
  22. TWinTX

    TWinTX New Member

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    Agreed that it is indeed be very difficult for many to separate race (a physical happenstance) from culture (a social construct). I fear that conflating the two under the heading of “racism” is one of the reasons discussions on “racism” are so difficult and usually unproductive. It may be a fool’s errand, but I will open another thread to explore the possibilities.
     
  23. JakeJ

    JakeJ Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Racist also means opposition to racial divisions, refusing to measure people by their race and opposition to racial segregation.
     
  24. Ndividual

    Ndividual Well-Known Member

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    I tend to measure people by the how they put their recognized abilities to use and neither oppose nor do I support racial segregation as long as it is a result of the individuals free choice.
    So I am a racist?
     

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